Kryptonian Council
Kryptonian Council
The Staff of the Superman Homepage Speak Out
[Date: November 2005]Hey, folks! Welcome to the Kryptonian Council! This is a free-form discussion where I and members of the Superman Homepage writing team will be talking freely about issues that affect the site and Superman in general. It's a little like Radio KAL, only it's more free-form. You'll find typos, off the cuff remarks. It's the website at its rawest, and it's supposed to be that way. Everything with a grain of salt, and humor, all the while confronting the issues of concern to a Superman fan. It's a way to extend the idea behind Radio KAL to multiple people, without having a bunch of people talking over each other, and we hope to make it a regular fixture here at the Superman Homepage, or at least a fixture for every time something major happens in the Superman world.
This time around we take a look at the second issue of the huge DC Universe event "Infinite Crisis". If you have suggestions for future topics, please send them in to either Steve Younis or Neal Bailey. Enjoy!
| Steve: | Welcome to the Superman Homepage "Kryptonian Council". Seven staff members of the Superman Homepage are all set to discuss "Infinite Crisis #2". Welcome guys... |
| Aaron: | Allo |
| Nick: | Hi |
| Justin: | Hello. |
| Barry: | Can everyone introduce themselves |
| Justin: | Justin Adams. |
| Neal: | Neal Bailey, Dark Lord of Smallville and varying nitpick sundries. |
| Michael: | Michael Bailey. |
| Barry: | Barry Freiman, sup-ah genius |
| Nick: | Nick Newman |
| Aaron: | Spanky McSoreBottom |
| Steve: | Let's try keep this serious guys... |
| Aaron: | Errr... Aaron (CyberV) Thall |
| Barry: | can i start |
| Neal: | All this and Andy Rooney...of Earth-X |
| Steve: | Go for it Barry |
| Barry: | i have to say what i found most impressive in this most recent issue was how well geoff summed up the story of the multiverse and the crisis |
| Nick: | exactly |
| Aaron: | And made years of theories n PG useless |
| Steve: | True, it really helped put things in context |
| Nick: | I was very impressed with that portion of the issue, and that's one of the reasons why I thought it was so great |
| Neal: | Very much so. Like I said in my review, if that wasn't done EXTRAORDINARILY well, it would have just left us saying "A summary in the middle of an event?" |
| Neal: | But it was |
| Michael: | I liked it too. I thought that he left it simple enough so that new readers while giving enough for the old timers. |
| Aaron: | Superman only does extraordinary |
| Barry: | it flies in the face of those who used to say "a multiverse is too complicated for people to understand" |
| Aaron: | Unless Azzarello writes him |
| Michael: | Even if he fudged on Superboy Prime's origin a bit. |
| Justin: | I loved both issues. Geoff is the next big writer for DC. |
| Barry: | he fudged a few things |
| Justin: | Everything he does is good. |
| Neal: | Yeah...that whole theory of "I don't like it because it's too complicated" lies with the people who don't want to read something because it's too long. Check the internet for a few summaries, that's what it's there for. |
| Nick: | Johns has been great for awhile, his other books are always fantastic |
| Barry: | the earth 2 superman had no fort in antarctica |
| Neal: | Still, the summary was so good I couldn't complain |
| Justin: | I also remember the Earth-2 Superman's Citadel being in Metropolis. |
| Barry: | he had a secret sanctuary |
| Barry: | yup |
| Neal: | I think that was less a fort, more a hideout... |
| Michael: | In the mountains outside of Metropolis. |
| Justin: | He could've always changed it before the first Crisis. |
| Barry: | in fact thats where lois and superman married |
| Aaron: | ...Not the metropolis in Kansas, right? |
| Neal: | I just finished re-reading Crisis on Infinite Earths, and Kara was there...anyone know how she forgot everything? |
| Michael: | I've never bought the whole, "It's too complicated" thing either. |
| Neal: | (If I don't know, chances are some other folks don't) |
| Aaron: | I went with the "poorly written" theory |
| Justin: | Wolfman was 100% correct about how DC made a mistake in not doing a total reboot. |
| Nick: | yup |
| Michael: | Well yes and no. |
| Nick: | that decision, or lack of one, was what ruined Crisis |
| Neal: | I'm beginning to think that as well. I think, even if you didn't like how, it revitalized Superman to start over |
| Justin: | Bringing back characters and trying to make them fit (with convoluted origins) was the wrong way to go. |
| Justin: | Though that occasionally worked. |
| Michael: | I mean a total reboot would have ruined a lot of good things DC was doing at the time. |
| Steve: | Neal didn't everyone forget? (Except the 4 characters, Alexander, Kal-L, Lois Lane Kent and Superboy Prime) |
| Aaron: | (cough) HAWKMAN (cough) |
| Barry: | the problem was dc prepared itself for an end with the crisis but not a beginning |
| Nick: | CoIE should have been a complete reboot, they tried to fix it with Zero Hour, but that didn't help at all |
| Justin: | It would've made Crisis itself more important as well. |
| Neal: | That's what I'm curious about, Steve. When you do exactly what I said to do (check online) the sad thing is sometimes you get authoritative armchair morons.... :) So basically everyone forgot but Psycho Pirate, right? |
| Michael: | Reboots will never truly work because writers and editors who come after the series can always undo what has come before. |
| Nick: | correct Neal |
| Aaron: | So all those false Power Girl origins... Universe trying to make her fit? |
| Neal: | That's something else we can fill folks in on...how Zero Hour factors in |
| Justin: | Yes. |
| Neal: | I actually missed most of that myself |
| Neal: | Beyond the Superman issues |
| Justin: | Power Girl should have a simple origin that's connected to Superman in some way. |
| Aaron: | It's simple NOW |
| Nick: | except there were other carryovers as well, I remember Chemo in an early issue of Action being from pre-Crisis |
| Justin: | Yes. |
| Michael: | I think her origin is simple enough too. |
| Barry: | Think about what it is geoff johns does so well when he reboots a character |
| Justin: | I was talking about the whole Atlantis thing. |
| Michael: | But Geoff doesn't ignore the past. |
| Justin: | Nope. |
| Michael: | He uses it as a tool. |
| Barry: | rather than use hypertime he embraces all the inconsistencies |
| Justin: | geoff uses it to make things work. |
| Neal: | I also saw a few other curious things, like Lori Lemaris actually dying in the crisis, but then reappearing in the future Superman comics, etcetera. There's a lot of strange stuff |
| Justin: | That's one of the reasons he's so good. |
| Michael: | So he's not rebooting, just reworking. |
| Justin: | Right. |
| Nick: | thats the feeling i get from this crisis |
| Neal: | I think Geoff has continuity and character, the two things I love about comics. |
| Michael: | They explained that Neal. |
| Nick: | not a reboot, just a retooling |
| Neal: | He doesn't have a fast pace, he's like Bendis in that way, and that turns some people on, enthralls others. |
| Steve: | So what did we learn from IC #2? |
| Justin: | I wouldn't mind a reboot, though, provided the right people were behind it. |
| Neal: | How did they explain it? |
| Neal: | (Not saying you're wrong, I just really don't know. :) ) |
| Aaron: | That that one infamous Superman page is right? |
| Justin: | Then again, we'd lose a lot of good stuff if they went that route. |
| Nick: | Well, Power Girl finally has a place |
| Nick: | We learned Luthor's plan |
| Steve: | Which Luthor? |
| Justin: | I'm hoping that the Earth-2 Superman isn't a villain. |
| Neal: | I think we learned that Superman of Earth-2 is shaping up to be the villain. Or at least, the red herring villain |
| Neal: | Heh |
| Nick: | um...society Luthor |
| Justin: | I don't think he will be. |
| Aaron: | I have a theory about E2 Superman's intentions |
| Barry: | a villain by circumstance not intention |
| Neal: | Yes |
| Neal: | The best kind |
| Justin: | I think he'll actually die fighting the real threat. |
| Neal: | Like Luthor |
| Michael: | (mutters to self) I can't remember right now. I want to say the reports of her death were wrong. |
| Neal: | (Like Luthor meaning, he's a villain by circumstance, at least at first, not that Luthor died fighting a real threat) |
| Michael: | God I hope he doesn't die. |
| Justin: | I see Superboy-Prime being connected to the rebooted Legion down the line. |
| Aaron: | Anyone mind if I try a bit of thread tying? |
| Justin: | Sure. |
| Michael: | And I think that Superman isn't the villain, just being manipulated by someone. Yeah, I'm looking at you Alexander Luthor. |
| Aaron: | Okay, here's what we know: |
| Justin: | I don't think Alex is the real threat either. But that's as good a guess as any. |
| Aaron: | The Watchtower was destroyed. J'onn has faked his death and gone into hiding |
| Neal: | I find it hard to see Alexander as a villain, per ce, considering Earth-3 |
| Aaron: | We know that E2 Superman was prone, in his day, to complicated and bizarre plans designed to get optimum positive effects |
| Barry: | this is earth 2 we all know who the bad guy always was on earth 2 - it wasn't humanite, it wasn't even lex, it was that meddlesome lois lane |
| Neal: | We also know that Superman of Earth 2 will survive from the solicits, so it's hard to say he'll end up at odds with Superman of our DCU |
| Justin: | Yeah, his father was the only hero. |
| Aaron: | Here's my theory: |
| Aaron: | S2 Superman broke out of Limbo early and infiltrated the Watchtower. Confronting J'onn, they devised a plan to revive the Earth 2 while healing the rifts in the current reality |
| Aaron: | He then returned to Limbo and played out freeing them again |
| Aaron: | This makes their reactions more realistic |
| Nick: | That seems out of character for J'onn to me |
| Aaron: | His intention is to restore his universe, while acting the role of villain, and forcing the current heroes to reunite. |
| Aaron: | Thus saving the current universe as well |
| Nick: | I buy E2 Superman blowing up the Watchtower |
| Nick: | though |
| Michael: | I don't. |
| Barry: | j'onn is the heart of the justice league - i do buy the idea he'd try to shock the heroes into being heroic again |
| Neal: | I had a thought that perhaps the person who attacked the watchtower could be Ultraman, working with the society. |
| Aaron: | He did that to remove traces of the mindwiping League and restore the AMERICA roots. |
| Justin: | It could always be Bizarro. |
| Neal: | That too |
| Neal: | There are a ton of people who wear the colors who aren't supes |
| Justin: | Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best one. |
| Aaron: | Lois's illness could be part of a greater deception |
| Michael: | If it was Bizarro the cape would not have been so red. |
| Justin: | Maybe. Bizarro is drawn differently a lot. |
| Michael: | I agree with the Lois assertion. |
| Barry: | until this issue i believed the earth 1 superman was the superman who blew up the watchtower |
| Aaron: | Superman 2 wants everyone to win. That's his nature. |
| Steve: | Neal, the watchtower computer registered the person as Superman... |
| Barry: | because the earth 1 superman isn't the same as the byrne superman no matter how much of earth-1 comprises earth dc |
| Neal: | True...but they would if it were Ultraman too, right? Aren't they the same person? |
| Aaron: | So by acting the role of villain, he reunites the heroes, and at the same time works to restore his own world as well |
| Neal: | But that does shoot down other folk. |
| Justin: | I'm not sure the Earth-2 Superman would want to bring his Earth back at the expense of the other Earth. |
| Justin: | He wants to save everyone, most likely. |
| Aaron: | J'onn's poised to rally the heroes when the time comes |
| Aaron: | He won't |
| Michael: | Ok, I'm going out on a limb here and saying that none of the Supermen blew up the Watchtower. |
| Aaron: | He wants to save BOTH |
| Michael: | Even misguided Superman is Superman. |
| Justin: | Yeah, that's how he SHOULD act. |
| Neal: | I see Superman of Earth 2 seeing the mind-wiping bit from Luthor as an opportunity. And from a storytelling perspective, it seems like an easy ret-con |
| Justin: | Right. |
| Aaron: | So that's my theory. |
| Michael: | It's a good theory. I don't quite agree with it, but it is very thought out. |
| Nick: | like i said in my review, the mind wiping sounds exactly like the proposed revamp from the late 90s |
| Neal: | But then, why heroes disappearing? That's the strange part I can't reconcile. That and Luthor's dementia |
| Barry: | also remember there's something new about the multiverse - we know from earth dc's dealings with the crime syndicate that when the JLA goes to the crime syndicate's earth they're at a disadvantage |
| Michael: | Not anymore. |
| Justin: | One thing I'm almost sure we'll get is a concrete Superman origin. |
| Barry: | there's a mental component to being on the wrong earth |
| Michael: | The Busiek JLA story took that away. |
| Neal: | I was amazed how synchronized we were, Nick. :) Great minds |
| Justin: | I actually think it'll be something new. |
| Michael: | At least I think it did. That's how I read it. |
| Justin: | Which it should be, in my view. |
| Barry: | so what if earth 2 superman isn't aware he's losing it |
| Neal: | Now I never nailed down if they called the Crime Syndicate Earth-2, Earth-3, or any other alternate Earth. What was the story there? |
| Aaron: | Of course, my theory is largely based on silver age Superman covers from "Superman is a ^%$#" |
| Michael: | The Luthor from that reality called the JLA's universe Earth-2. |
| Barry: | the crime syndicate is on earth 3 |
| Justin: | I like how the Earth-2 Superman was annoyed that his world was referred to as "earth-2." |
| Neal: | In pre-Crisis...I mean the current one we've been seeing |
| Justin: | Right. |
| Neal: | Yeah, me too. His ire was great |
| Barry: | except the crime syndicate hardcover post crisis refers to their earth as earth 2 |
| Aaron: | Steve, do you have any theories on Superman 2's decision to bring back his world? |
| Neal: | That's what I was thinking, Barry. I recalled that in the back of my mind.... |
| Steve: | No, no theories here... I'm just enjoying the ride |
| Justin: | I think he just wants a world with more traditionally heroic heroes. |
| Michael: | I could have sworn that Luthor made mention that he called the JLA world Earth-2. |
| Barry: | now given there hasn't been an earth 2 since the crisis that would make earth 3 into earth 2 so technically that's rite |
| Nick: | I think he wants to trade it off, his words are that he wants to erase that world like his was, and bring back his own planet |
| Aaron: | I can't see Superman... ANY Superman, ending an entire timeline when it isn't necessary |
| Nick: | i agree barry |
| Justin: | In other words, he wants a world without "women in refrigerators." |
| Aaron: | That'd essentially be genocide |
| Justin: | Same here. |
| Justin: | He wouldn't do that. |
| Michael: | I think a world of more traditionally heroic characters is what were going to get from this, but I don't think they are going to turn back the clock and make it the way it was. |
| Justin: | Yeah. |
| Neal: | Then again, we have to note, fairly, who thought that the wife of the Atom would kill Sue Dibny? |
| Michael: | Everything that Johns and Crew have done points to moving forward. |
| Aaron: | So that's why I think he is using J'onn and the destruction of the Tower to try and reunite the heroes so they can fix what's wrong |
| Justin: | Johns respects the past but also moves forward. |
| Justin: | His stories have the best of both worlds. |
| Barry: | granted we are the superman homepage but i think we need to consider what the newly reborn green lantern hal jordan might think about all this |
| Neal: | We have been promised this is NOT a reboot... |
| Barry: | this is what he tried to do during zero hour if it is what earth 2 superman does attempt |
| Nick: | but erasing everyone's memory is not rebooting |
| Neal: | Yes. I think Green Lantern has been conspicuously absent. |
| Justin: | Promises have been broken before in comics. Still, I'm also skeptical about a reboot. |
| Michael: | This is why they said there won't be any All-Star Squadron stories in JSA CLASSIFIED. grumble grumble |
| Neal: | They also are CANCELING Wonder Woman. How's that for a hint. I doubt that's sales? |
| Barry: | remember the beginning of the end for hal jordan took place in the story of the death & resurrection of superman in 1992 |
| Aaron: | DC's infamous for reboots, so I don't blame you for trepidation |
| Justin: | WW was actually seeing well during the Sacrifice storyline. |
| Aaron: | Flash, Gotham Central, Breach... |
| Nick: | for everyone who hasn't read the remarks DC has made: |
| Michael: | My thinking is that any book that hasn't been around for over three decades is game for a new number one. |
| Nick: | they're going to start canceling books, and June and July next year will have "high-profile launches" of new books |
| Michael: | And word is Wonder Woman is coming back as a new #1. |
| Aaron: | Which is when the icons get fresh starts |
| Nick: | i predict a whole lot of #1s |
| Aaron: | Hawkgirl's taking over Hawkman's book |
| Barry: | Personally i think rather than a wonder woman #1 |
| Justin: | I don't see Supergirl dying this time. Her book is too new and it's selling very well. |
| Michael: | Probably. |
| Barry: | it ought to be sensation comics #1 |
| Nick: | I'm still siding with a dead Supergirl |
| Michael: | Barry, that is awesome. |
| Neal: | I see Power Girl dying, actually |
| Justin: | I don't see either dying. |
| Michael: | Agreed. |
| Aaron: | Hawkman seems a shoe-in for a morgue slab |
| Justin: | Poor Carter. |
| Justin: | He's gone through so many changes. |
| Nick: | the fact that Superman/Batman was a lead in to all of this, bringing Supergirl in there just works |
| Neal: | My reasoning being she's been very obscure, what's a crisis without a dead Supergirl, and lately they've poured a LOT into making her important. That usually only happens when someone's gonna die. (Blue Beetle, note) |
| Michael: | Don't think it will happen, but a new Sensation will be awesome. |
| Aaron: | I'm still mad about Hawkwoman |
| Barry: | u do sensation as a 2 story per book book - with a WW story in the front and rotating other heroines in the back |
| Nick: | its ironic, since Crisis screwed up Hawkman until Johns fixed him in JSA, and now Johns is killing him with the next Crisis |
| Justin: | And again, her title is selling very well for a supporting Superman character. |
| Aaron: | Unless the crisis is Hawkman having a gender change... He's seen stranger changes! |
| Neal: | Power Girl dying is also a VERY good motivation for Earth-2 Supes to go rogue |
| Neal: | At least, in the heat of anger |
| Michael: | Still and all I would not be upset if they reboot everything. I don't think they will, but I would dig it just the same. |
| Barry: | except for one thing neal |
| Neal: | Tell me. :) |
| Barry: | he was pissed when he thought lois didn't survive the first crisis |
| Michael: | Barry's right. |
| Neal: | Yep. Despondent. Wanted to die |
| Barry: | and had every reason to want to kill the antimonitor |
| Neal: | Rash |
| Neal: | Yes |
| Aaron: | Killed Anti-monitor dead |
| Aaron: | Twice |
| Michael: | Awesome bit of Perez art there as well. |
| Justin: | I'm enjoying the Perez covers a lot. |
| Neal: | Final question from me. |
| Justin: | I like Lee as well, but I'm a sucker for Perez. |
| Neal: | Do you believe we will see the Monitor or the Anti-Monitor |
| Neal: | ? |
| Barry: | agree the perez covers are better |
| Nick: | I do not |
| Aaron: | I hope not |
| Justin: | I'm not sure. |
| Nick: | i see no reason for either of them |
| Justin: | That could go either way. |
| Michael: | I thought the second issue was great. They introduced and moved forward some sub=plots and anyone who is a fan of the Earth-2 Superman would be happy with it, even if they blew his symbol on the Lee cover. |
| Neal: | Lee never really got the symbol right. :) |
| Justin: | It also explained things for the casual fans. |
| Aaron: | Heck, after JLA/Avengers, I'm ready to blame Scarlet Witch for everything. I mean, it works for Marvel. |
| Neal: | Hey...one quick note before we go...readers, feel free to submit some questions or theories for next month to comment or have commented on...we're going to do this after each issue, right Steve? |
| Steve: | That's the plan |
| Barry: | a related issue before we leave this issue - i understand the first set of dc direct crisis figures is being recalled is there anything you know about that steve that we can tell everyone out there |
| Michael: | Yeah, my thought is that the Crisis will be revealed to be a result of Zatanna learning that the children she had with Red Tornado were a figment of their imagination. |
| Nick: | and that's why I don't read marvel |
| Aaron: | I think it's the result of her seeing Smallville and taking up Neal's cause... |
| Neal: | Hahahahaah. Awesome |
| Justin: | I mostly read Ultimate Marvel. |
| Neal: | And then they'll kill Hawkeye |
| Justin: | And Supreme Power. |
| Neal: | And split the internet in two |
| Steve: | Barry, only that they've recalled the 1st series action figures... due to quality control issues |
| Michael: | And bring him back and then take away everyone's powers. |
| Neal: | There will be no more mutants in the DC Universe |
| Aaron: | But in all seriousness, guys... |
| Barry: | i have supergirl - i would suggest that anyone who bought that first set of crisis figures discuss with the story u bought them at to figure out how to return them - i think an exchange for the new and improved figures is envisioned |
| Neal: | House of El |
| Justin: | Let's talk about the possibly of the multiple Earths coming back. |
| Nick: | not going to happen |
| Michael: | Agreed. |
| Neal: | I agree. I don't see it beyond Earth-2 |
| Aaron: | I'm of two minds on the subject. One on each Earth |
| Justin: | I'd also have to agree. |
| Nick: | there's no reason for a multiverse when you have elseworlds |
| Neal: | I see more characters from pre-Crisis returning, however |
| Nick: | and all-star, etc |
| Nick: | i agree neal |
| Justin: | Well, Hypertime is gone now, too. |
| Neal: | Now that there's a precedent |
| Michael: | Elseworlds? I thought they got rid of that. |
| Justin: | They did. |
| Nick: | well, sort of |
| Neal: | I can see why. 25 bucks for a hardcover 64 page story got stupid. They killed it with price |
| Justin: | Well, officially. |
| Barry: | what is an elseworlds but an alternate earth - i think the multiverse is going to return in some form when all is said and done |
| Neal: | If they released them as single issues, it'd probably sell |
| Nick: | agreed Neal, DC really blew it with that |
| Aaron: | Think JLA will get run by Vampire Batman? |
| Michael: | Or a communist Superman? |
| Neal: | For that matter, will Superman still head the JLA after this? |
| Justin: | Multiverse wouldn't really cause problems if there were no crossovers. |
| Neal: | And will Earth-2 Supes head the JSA. Seems likely, with Geoff around? |
| Barry: | where did captain atom go last month? |
| Michael: | Neal, I'm thinking yes given Berganza's comments. |
| Neal: | What were they? |
| Neal: | I missed the one you're talking about |
| Neal: | Do you mean in Ask Eddie? |
| Barry: | captain atom blasted into the wildstorm universe - that makes wildstorm an alternate earth |
| Michael: | He joked in his Horcast interview about how much he was going to use Superman now that he is editing JLA. |
| Neal: | Ah! Okay. I thought you meant Earth-2 |
| Aaron: | You ASSUME he's joking |
| Steve: | Well guys, it's been an interesting chat. Thanks for taking part in this Infinite Crisis #2 Kryptonian Council meeting. We'll do it all again next month after #3 is released. |
| Neal: | I had forgotten that. |
| Michael: | I say joked as in he was laughing while he said it, not the intent. |
| Justin: | Cool. |
| Justin: | This was fun. |
| Neal: | Agreed! This is more awesome each time. |
| Michael: | Yes, a little chaotic but fun. |
| Aaron: | Maybe next time I'll read the issue first. |
| Aaron: | ...Nah |
| Neal: | We gotta get Rucka or Loeb in here |
| Justin: | I look forward to the next one. |
| Neal: | Or Johns....mwu ha ha |
| Steve: | We can try |
| Justin: | I'm sure some creator would take part in this. |
| Steve: | OK we'll see who we can get in here... Until next month. Bye for now! |
| Neal: | Later! |
| Michael: | Later. |
| Nick: | night |
| Justin: | Later. |
| Aaron: | May the Power protect you all. |
Kryptonian Council Meetings
- June 2005 - Is the Superman Homepage anti-Smallville?
- October 2005 - Infinite Crisis #1
- November 2005 - Infinite Crisis #2
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #3
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #4
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis #5
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis: Secret Files & Origins 2006
- April 2006 - Infinite Crisis #6
- May 2006 - Infinite Crisis #7
- May 2006 - Superman Returns Theatrical Trailer
- May 2007 - Discussing “52”
