Kryptonian Council
Kryptonian Council
The Staff of the Superman Homepage Speak Out
[Date: April 2006]Hey, folks! Welcome to the Kryptonian Council! This is a free-form discussion where I and members of the Superman Homepage writing team will be talking freely about issues that affect the site and Superman in general. It's a little like Radio KAL, only it's more free-form. You'll find typos, off the cuff remarks. It's the website at its rawest, and it's supposed to be that way. Everything with a grain of salt, and humor, all the while confronting the issues of concern to a Superman fan. It's a way to extend the idea behind Radio KAL to multiple people, without having a bunch of people talking over each other, and we hope to make it a regular fixture here at the Superman Homepage, or at least a fixture for every time something major happens in the Superman world.
This time around we take a look the 6th issue of the huge DC Universe event "Infinite Crisis". If you have suggestions for future topics, please send them in to either Steve Younis or Neal Bailey. Enjoy!
| Steve: | Welcome one and all to another Superman Homepage Kryptonian Council meeting. I'm Steve Younis, and I'm joined by Neal Bailey, Barry Freiman, Nick Newman and Jeffrey Bridges to discuss "Infinite Crisis #6". Hi guys! |
| Neal: | Hello, all! |
| Nick: | Hi everybody |
| Jeffrey: | Greetings and Salutations! |
| Barry: | yello -oh |
| Steve: | OK, Neal, get us started... |
| Neal: | All right. Well, on the list of topics first today is a question from a reader. He wants to know what we think the heroes should do with Superboy Prime, assuming he survives and is captured or subdued. Should they kill him, mind wipe him, put him in jail? Bearing in mind that he's broken out of the Phantom Zone, the Speed Force, and the Paradise Dimension, and also, that he's complicit in a plot to Universe-cide. |
| Barry: | contain him - perhaps back in limbo - this shouldnt be a repeat of the byrne phantom zone story |
| Neal: | And a mind wipe, to me at least, seems WAY out of the question |
| Barry: | every prisoner - no matter how dangerous - has the risk of escaping thats not reason to kill |
| Steve: | Well it'd go against everything that go us here in the first place wouldn't it Neal? |
| Jeffrey: | I think he's just confused and misled. Stick him in the source wall and get him some psychiatric help. |
| Steve: | Phantom Zone? |
| Neal: | Pretty much. And besides, wherever they trap him, he might punch a wall and make Luthor a CIA Agent or something (Kidding) |
| Jeffrey: | Or a shoe salesman |
| Barry: | they already put him in the phantom zone |
| Nick: | But is there even a chance for him to 'get better' after spending years trapped with the Flashes? |
| Barry: | didnt work - over in titans |
| Steve: | Ah, yes, they did too |
| Jeffrey: | Hmm, I forgot about the "years" bit |
| Neal: | Did they? How did I miss that? |
| Nick: | the phantom zone arrow |
| Neal: | I read Titans |
| Neal: | Oh! Oh yeah! |
| Barry: | speedy had a special phantom zone arrow |
| Jeffrey: | I'd say there's still a chance for him to get better. I mean, they should at least try to help him before doing away with him. |
| Nick: | it happened in issue 33 for those wishing to check it out |
| Jeffrey: | TT33 is still sitting in my too-large stack of comics that needs reading. I'll have to get to that pronto. |
| Steve: | Well we don't know if he survived do we? |
| Nick: | the preview for 7 says its the big battle |
| Steve: | ok, well we do |
| Neal: | The old Star Wars theory...the guy who killed a Universe than became a good guy. I forget the character name, but Warsies know who I'm talking about. |
| Jeffrey: | Well Prime never wanted to kill a universe though, he was being manipulated until he hit the breaking point. So it's not like he set out to be evil. |
| Neal: | New topic: The redemption of sins as a concept: Each character supposedly had a sin going in. I figured it might be a good time to try and guess it, and see if they redeemed it. Starting with Wonder Woman, the obvious. The sin? And is she redeemed? |
| Neal: | No brainer, I know, for her sin, but still, just to keep to formula |
| Jeffrey: | Well, she didn't do anything, did she? |
| Steve: | Killing Max Lord |
| Barry: | she killed |
| Jeffrey: | No, I know that |
| Jeffrey: | I meant in IC6 |
| Jeffrey: | What did she do that redeemed her? |
| Nick: | i don't think she's redeemed, but she regrets it |
| Barry: | why do u think she regrets it |
| Neal: | Nothing, yet. That's what perplexes me. If she's to have a major character upheaval and change, it'll have to be in the last issue or in the new series. |
| Neal: | I don't think she does |
| Neal: | And I don't think she should. |
| Jeffrey: | I agree, I don't think she regrets it at all |
| Neal: | But then, with that whole "redemption" idea, it kind of is a dangling end |
| Nick: | not so much regretting the actual killing, but i think she regrets the division and how things got that way |
| Jeffrey: | That's not her character. She did what she needed to do, in her mind, and that's that. |
| Barry: | i agree with the she doesnt regret it - but yes i agree nick she probbly does regret being used by OMAC and Brother eye |
| Jeffrey: | She may regret that her actions helped cause the "split", but she'd still do it all over again if she had to |
| Neal: | She has made a few sacrifices. The big one (paradise island), and seperating the two Supermen. But that was more just doing the right thing than making amends |
| Jeffrey: | I agree. She's actually played a relatively small part in the Crisis itself. It seems her participation was largely in the lead-up |
| Barry: | maybe she isnt supposed to be redeemed - we dont know yet who wonder woman is going to be in her upcoming new title after all |
| Nick: | that's true, her future is up in the air right now |
| Jeffrey: | Well from the Kubert cover to the new WW1, it looks like it's still Diana |
| Nick: | although I'm pretty sure it will still be diana |
| Neal: | Batman is the next hero: His sin? And has he redeemed it? |
| Nick: | he didn't trust anyone |
| Steve: | Creating Brother Eye |
| Barry: | Paranoia will destroy ya |
| Jeffrey: | I think Bats has, yes. He's trusting people now, and that's big. |
| Neal: | No problem. :) I see it as Batman was not close to people. Paranoia. It's obvious, teaming up to kill Brother Eye, and now, in the comics, treating Tim like a son, he's the most redeemed of them all |
| Nick: | not only in IC, but also in his OYL books |
| Steve: | Killing Brother Eye redeemed him |
| Neal: | Yes. In fact, of all the characters, he seems to have benefitted most from this examination. |
| Nick: | Batman has clearly changed from the Crisis |
| Nick: | definitely |
| Neal: | Well, that's hardly debated...now how about Superman? His sin, and his redemption? |
| Steve: | The way he trusted those in his team to do their jobs... shows he's changed |
| Neal: | Yeah |
| Jeffrey: | I agree. Did anyone read Catwoman 53, first Catwoman OYL book? He made an appearance there and was decidedly... lighter. |
| Neal: | Superman's was supposedly inaction, but I hardly see that... |
| Nick: | complete with teddy bear |
| Neal: | Bat-teddy bear. |
| Steve: | What has Superman done wrong?? Can not being "inspirational enough" be considered a sin? |
| Neal: | With grimace repelling bat-spray |
| Nick: | the argument is that he failed to be a leader. I think it can be a sin |
| Neal: | See, I can't hardly see that, myself. He led the JLA for fifteen years of books, first de-facto, then actually |
| Nick: | As the 'head' hero, he has a responsibility to everyone else |
| Steve: | I don't know... it wasn't from lack of trying IMHO |
| Jeffrey: | I don't know, he never stopped doing what he was doing. Is it his fault if others aren't inspired by him? |
| Neal: | He stopped Imperiex. He's the guy who stops most every threat |
| Barry: | no it's conduit's fault |
| Neal: | Maybe they mean Smallville? Zing! Er...(dodges tomatos) |
| Steve: | Maybe we're biased... but I don't see where Superman sinned |
| Jeffrey: | Me either |
| Neal: | I think, you know what? I think it's meta-textual |
| Steve: | Meaning? |
| Barry: | what does that mean |
| Jeffrey: | I see where Superman of Earth-2 *thinks* he has, but that's a separate issue |
| Neal: | I think it's the fact that though in the comics you can always point and say, "Look! Superman saved the day!" In the outside world, where we live, people's perceptions of Superman in the COMICS (nowhere else) talking to them in the shops are that of the fairweather fan. "Eh, he's not killing people, he's not being drawn by Jim Lee... Eh! Maybe it's an examination of that |
| Steve: | ok... if you say so :P |
| Neal: | Not saying that's my opinion. Just trying to come up with a rationale |
| Nick: | there has been a lot of self-doubt on Superman's part |
| Jeffrey: | Maybe |
| Steve: | What about redeeming himself? |
| Nick: | which I blame on writers, but it still happened |
| Jeffrey: | But in-story I think it only works from Superman-2's perception |
| Barry: | geoff certainly thinks not being an inspiration is a sin and batman voiced that |
| Nick: | I don't think he's redeemed yet and really can't until he gets his powers back OYL |
| Neal: | You know, it might be that, too? Maybe from the perspective of Earth 2, he needs to be redeemed, and that will stop the crisis? |
| Steve: | Geoff doesn't think it... you'll see that in the up-coming interview we have with him |
| Jeffrey: | Well if that was his "sin", then no, he hasn't redeemed, because he's not stepped up to lead anyone yet |
| Nick: | unless he unites everyone in IC 7 |
| Neal: | Okay, here's a rough one: What do you think about the graphic death of Psycho Pirate, and was Conner somehow responsible (having released Black Adam)? |
| Jeffrey: | I think it was Catwoman53 which references some huge battle in Metropolis at the end of the Crisis. Maybe that's what's coming in IC7. |
| Nick: | yes, that's coming complete with Doomsday! |
| Barry: | No Conner wasn't responsible |
| Nick: | not Conner's fault at all |
| Steve: | Is it Connor or Conner? |
| Nick: | Conner. Connor is Green Arrow II |
| Barry: | the Tower wasnt Jail - it isnt as if they could keep him hanging there alone till the crisis was over |
| Jeffrey: | I don't think it was Conner's fault, and I think the death was perhaps overly-graphic but it didn't really bother me. I just didn't see the need for it, unless there's a point to be made in IC7 about Black Adam's ruthlessness |
| Neal: | True. But they released him without trying to hold him back, what's Black Adam gonna do? (More playing Devil's Advocate here) |
| Barry: | Adam is supposedly a major player in 52 i'm sure that will be dealt with |
| Nick: | yes, but they're fighting for the future of their world, any help is good help |
| Neal: | That's my take. |
| Jeffrey: | In that case, as long as it serves a story with him somewhere, I have no problem with it at all |
| Steve: | The enemy of my enemy is my friend |
| Neal: | And the enemy of my enemy of my enemy is a right turn! (Bullwinkle joke, never mind) |
| Barry: | the JSA let adam live in his country - are they responsible? |
| Neal: | Well, like I said in my review, is Batman responsible for what Joker does? Some say yes. I say no. |
| Nick: | they had no right to remove him from his country |
| Steve: | That's like saying Batman let the Joker live... is he responsible for everyone the Joker went on to kill |
| Barry: | black adam is a murderer - extradition would certainly have been an option |
| Nick: | some would say yes... but he's the leader of his country |
| Neal: | How about Conner? This is the big question. Was killing him the right story thing to do (personal feelings of sadness or glee aside)? |
| Nick: | NO |
| Steve: | It fit the story... I think it was a poignant moment |
| Nick: | Geoff has done a wonderful job of giving Conner an actual character |
| Barry: | i did not feel the same sadness that i felt in 1985 when Kara I died |
| Nick: | i wasn't sad, i was mad |
| Barry: | or the Flash |
| Neal: | Another factor: Maybe he isn't dead. Robin's trying to clone him. It could be a "Death of Superman", if you will. |
| Nick: | true or he could be the Supernova mentioned in the super-books |
| Jeffrey: | *That* would tick me off more than anything concerning Conner, I think |
| Steve: | Barry, is that because none of the characters surrounding him seemed that upset? |
| Barry: | I think its somewhat disingenuous to write a series that is partially about why death has no meaning anymore in comics and then kill the clone - who is immediately perceived as repairable |
| Neal: | Conner has had an arc, I feel. And I think that they picked the right time and the right way to kill him. Even though I love the heck out of him. |
| Jeffrey: | It invalidates his death, to a degree |
| Nick: | that's my feeling, if they killed him just to bring him back as something different, whats the point |
| Neal: | I personally think Robin will fail |
| Nick: | i think he will too |
| Barry: | i dont i think the missing ingredient is in cassie |
| Neal: | I think it's permanent, to make room for a "Ur" Superboy that may or may not see the light of day what with the court |
| Steve: | Well we have the Conner statue next to Superman's in OYL |
| Nick: | Cassie (Wonder Girl) will probably talk him out of it |
| Barry: | theres a resaon they had the s*x |
| Neal: | Actually, according to Didio, they used a condom, so... But then, one Superboy punch on the wall, and Didio is erased! |
| Nick: | that's true, no baby |
| Steve: | Yeah, Didio said, no baby |
| Nick: | don't remind me |
| Neal: | What do you all think of the new Spectre, especially seeing as Allen doesn't seem to be in control (like with Jordan)? |
| Nick: | I'm reserving judgement until I read the series |
| Barry: | well he is a newbie so that is logical that he would not have control yet |
| Nick: | but like I said in my review, I thought his appearance in IC 6 was just a waste |
| Jeffrey: | I really don't know enough about him to say. His appearance in IC6 seemed pointless, much like Donna Troy and her team out in space. Have they actually done *anything* since the Crisis began? |
| Neal: | And Star Sapphire! Ouch! |
| Steve: | I don't know... I don't really read anything to do with the Spectre... all I know is those chest stitches look painful |
| Barry: | Very important question: In the panel that Sapphire is killed is that ISIS behind her ? |
| Nick: | who? |
| Neal: | Looking. |
| Barry: | mighty isis - the sister show to shazam |
| Nick: | i see |
| Neal: | Wow! It looks like it is. |
| Steve: | Woman wearing white dress, gold tiara |
| Barry: | yup - that's major. Hallmark had owned the rights and i had heard dc was trying to secure them perhaps they did |
| Neal: | Superboy Prime's disappearance and re-emergence. Properly explained? People seem cloudy on that issue to me. |
| Steve: | No... why was there red sunlight in the Speed Force? |
| Jeffrey: | Kind of glossed over, but there didn't seem to be a whole lot of room to elaborate |
| Nick: | i think they're confused about what they, the writers, did |
| Barry: | also why would he make an antimonitor superboy suit? |
| Nick: | the flashes said the speed force, but SPB said under a red sun |
| Neal: | It's one of those things where I'm like, yeah, okay, it doesn't make as much sense, but GREEN AND PURPLE SUIT! You know? Just too fun to have one care. |
| Nick: | the suit is totally just to reference Crisis on Infinite Earths |
| Neal: | So cool it doesn't make you suspend disbelief no matter how irrational. Like "I am your father!" |
| Barry: | unless it isnt arbitrary - what if there is an antimonitor connection that hasnt been revealed yet |
| Steve: | So it sounds like he was in their for quite a while |
| Jeffrey: | I don't know, it didn't seem that cool to me. |
| Neal: | Well, as you'll find out from the interview, since it's now been publicly stated, no Monitor or Anti-Monitor in the series beyond what we've seen |
| Steve: | He says he was trapped in the speed force for years under red sunlight. So he built the suit he's wearing to harness energy and turn it into yellow sunlight |
| Barry: | time moves differently in the speed force i can buy that it probably is true - remember geoff wrote 61 issues of the flash id guess he knows the speed force better than us |
| Steve: | So is there like another world inside the speed force... a phantom zone of sorts? |
| Neal: | It's like a HAPPY Phantom Zone, heh. One final, tertiary agenda item: Have the Superboy fights overshadowed the Supeman vs. Superman fight? And is that appropriate, given what happens? Did you expect something else? Is it good? |
| Barry: | i do recall wally was able to manipulate the energy of the speed force he used it to make a new costume at one point |
| Nick: | it has overshadowed, but i think that's fine |
| Steve: | Neal, maybe so far... but I have a feeling that'll change in IC #7 |
| Barry: | anyone who can say they have expected any of what's happened in Infinite Crisis is lying or from the future |
| Jeffrey: | I think they've absolutely overshadowed the Superman fight, but I have no problem with it as it makes sense in-story |
| Neal: | Or privy to spoilers...mwu ha ha ha! |
| Nick: | the superboy fight is the important one |
| Neal: | I mean, I'm sure Geoff Johns knew what would happen. But then, he is an android from the future. I think. |
| Nick: | and we'll get a cool Superman fight next issue |
| Jeffrey: | Can he use contractions? |
| Barry: | remember 4 months ago, the idea that superman of earth 2 was gonna break out of limbo was beyond contemplation |
| Neal: | Heck, the idea that we'd ever see any of them again was laughable |
| Nick: | i never would have guessed |
| Steve: | Guys, what about Alex... What's gonna happen to him? |
| Nick: | I think he needs to die for the story |
| Jeffrey: | I don't expect he'll be alive at the end of IC7 |
| Barry: | that he managed to tell a story with them as the main characters that is coherent is another feather in gj's very feathery cap |
| Nick: | they need to clean up the remains from COIE |
| Neal: | It's like I point out in the interview...these characters are third stringers now, and Geoff just made them integral to the DC Universe again. |
| Neal: | I see Alex and Superboy as dead as doornails. |
| Barry: | actually the biggest disappointment hero-wise in the story has been donna troy - but it isnt over yet |
| Jeffrey: | Going back to my earlier question, does anyone actually know what the heck Donna Troy has been doing? She gathered up her team for some important mission but I don't remember seeing them do a whole lot of anything all that important |
| Neal: | I think Alex and Superboy will kill each other, actually |
| Nick: | the entire space story was tacked on to IC. According to last issue, her important role was having everyone blast off Alex's finger |
| Steve: | They broke one of Alex's fingers |
| Neal: | That'll redeem Superboy, somewhat, and stop the threat. There's a reason no one can stop Superboy. He's the only guy who can stop Alex. That's my writer's sense tingling |
| Jeffrey: | Was that really worth taking her whole team out into space for? It just seems kind of pointless. |
| Jeffrey: | Good call, Neal |
| Barry: | i agree neal and jeff |
| Steve: | Maybe IC #7 will explain it more Jeffrey |
| Jeffrey: | I hope so |
| Neal: | It's just logic. Like believing Superboy was a dead duck. Put a character into the Achilles role, if you're as GOOD as Geoff, you're doing it for a reason. Subconsciously, this prepares the audience. Readers don't know this. Writers see it plainly. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing |
| Steve: | Well any last thoughts guys before I wrap this up? |
| Neal: | My last thought? Still an incredible series |
| Nick: | agreed |
| Jeffrey: | Still the most amazing series I've read in my lifetime |
| Nick: | i had my minor problems with 6, but the whole thing is still fantastic |
| Jeffrey: | If I get to experience one more series this good before I die I'll count myself very lucky |
| Neal: | I'm dubious about the changes to Supes, but then, change can't always be bad. Byrne was a change |
| Nick: | I don't know if I'd go that far, but for a company wide crossover it's phenomenal |
| Neal: | Kicks the crap out of House of M, at least for me |
| Barry: | Well one thing that a nonpowered superman makes possible - a baby |
| Nick: | yup |
| Jeffrey: | The stork's a-comin' |
| Neal: | True! Wow. Hadn't thought of that |
| Steve: | Nah... I don't think so. He's still Kryptonian, and Lois is still an Earthling |
| Nick: | is he? |
| Steve: | Powers or no powers... different species |
| Barry: | i think it depends on what happens in Superman Returns with Lois's kid to be honest |
| Neal: | I think, given what Rucka told me just last year of how that was out of the picture for now, I'm guessing it's not as likely as the story would make it seem |
| Barry: | and how that's received |
| Nick: | perhaps he was made human smallville style |
| Jeffrey: | So maybe they'll think the baby won't have powers, but then when it hits puberty... |
| Nick: | I could see that |
| Steve: | We'll have to wait and see. OK... Well that about wraps it up for this Kryptonian Council meeting... We may have a surprise guest for the next meeting to discuss IC #7... We'll have to wait and see |
| Neal: | Thanks, guys! |
| Barry: | good chat tonight |
| Nick: | Thanks everybody |
| Steve: | Bye! |
| Jeffrey: | Adios! |
| Neal: | Later, all. |
Kryptonian Council Meetings
- June 2005 - Is the Superman Homepage anti-Smallville?
- October 2005 - Infinite Crisis #1
- November 2005 - Infinite Crisis #2
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #3
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #4
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis #5
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis: Secret Files & Origins 2006
- April 2006 - Infinite Crisis #6
- May 2006 - Infinite Crisis #7
- May 2006 - Superman Returns Theatrical Trailer
- May 2007 - Discussing “52”
