Kryptonian Council
Kryptonian Council
The Staff of the Superman Homepage Speak Out
[Date: October 2005]Hey, folks! Welcome to the Kryptonian Council! This is a free-form discussion where I and members of the Superman Homepage writing teams will be talking freely about issues that affect the site and Superman in general. It's a little like Radio KAL, only it's more free-form. You'll find typos, off the cuff remarks. It's the website at its rawest, and it's supposed to be that way. Everything with a grain of salt, and humor, all the while confronting the issues of concern to a Superman fan. It's a way to extend the idea behind Radio KAL to multiple people, without having a bunch of people talking over each other, and we hope to make it a regular fixture here at the Superman Homepage, or at least a fixture for every time something major happens in the Superman world.
This time around we take a look at the first issue of the huge DC Universe event "Infinite Crisis". If you have suggestions for future topics, please send them in to either Steve Younis or Neal Bailey. Enjoy!
| Steve: | Welcome to the 2nd Superman Homepage Kryptonian Council |
| Steve: | Today various members of the Superman Homepage staff are going to chat about "Infinite Crisis" the huge event currently underway in the DC Universe |
| Steve: | So, your thoughts on the 1st issue guys? |
| Barry: | well it's more than just earth 2 supes |
| Barry: | it's all back |
| Nick: | You think? |
| Barry: | that last page acknowledges earth 2, earth 3, and earth prime |
| Nick: | Yes, but only the survivors that left after crisis |
| Steve: | First up, can we clarify who those 4 people were on the last page? |
| Barry: | The Golden Age Superman |
| Neal: | I usually groan with tightly paneled books, and begrudge reading them. This is one of the first ones in a long time where every panel was enthralling. The promise of infinite earths bug some people...I don't tend to mind it. |
| Barry: | The first Lois Lane Kent |
| Nick: | I'm getting the impression that their worlds are still gone |
| Barry: | of earth 2 |
| Barry: | alexander luthor of earth 3 |
| Barry: | and the superboy of earth prime |
| Neal: | All of whom were given "refuge" at the end of the first Crisis by Alexander Luthor |
| Barry: | superman and lois are the characters who made their debut in action 1 in 1938 |
| Neal: | Kind of a way to let them survive even if they're dead to continuity |
| Barry: | the ones who joined the jsa |
| Barry: | who retired circa the 50s or 60s |
| Barry: | and whose cousin may or may not be power girl |
| Nick: | 1952 I think |
| Steve: | OK... So let me ask you about Lex Luthor... both of them |
| Neal: | The one who could sneeze and blow the earth apart...the one that by my reckoning is about twice as strong as the current Supes |
| Neal: | That's opinion, not canon |
| Barry: | neal wasnt the earth 2 superman less powerful than earth 1 ? |
| Barry: | now earth 1 superman of course was a lot more powerful than the current earthdc superman |
| Neal: | Might have been. I'm already confused. :) |
| Steve: | Which Lex is the real one... meaning which Lex is the one who was President? |
| Nick: | yeah, golden age Supes was less powerful than traditional pre-crisis Superman |
| Neal: | I thought the Superman from Earth-2 was the one that had all of the powers to move the Earth and etcetera |
| Neal: | That's likely the post-Crisis Luthor |
| Barry: | nope remember the earth 2 superman could only leap an 1/8 mile at a time |
| Nick: | I think they're both post-crisis |
| Neal: | Only the Azarello Man of Steel Mini and Villains United had blue-eyed Luthor |
| Nick: | i'm siding with the Birthright and MOS theory |
| Neal: | Then you're right, Barry. I got Earth-1 pre-Crisis and Earth-2 mixed up. |
| Neal: | Birthright he had green eyes.... |
| Nick: | yeah, i haven't been paying attention to the eyes at all, so i can't answer that |
| Neal: | Truth is, it's all pretty confusing and hard to put into perspective without the context of the whole series..... |
| Steve: | Hmm... my first thought (after seeing that last page of IC #1) was that there might be a post-Crisis and a pre-Crisis Luthor... but the Birthright and MOS idea is an interesting one too |
| Nick: | but it seems like they're playing off of crisis, and theres no way one of those luthors could have survived |
| Neal: | It's not that we're dumb, it's that time will establish the background. I don't think they'll leave us in the dark. |
| Barry: | steve i agree with you |
| Neal: | I like the pre-Crisis one. VU is very pre-Crisis Luthor's MO |
| Neal: | Though post HAS done an Injustice Gang |
| Barry: | the ramifications of that are huge |
| Barry: | in the superman world |
| Nick: | somewhat, but not enough evil scientist, still lots of Byrne-era scheming |
| Steve: | So the one donning the Battle Armor is the one who was President, right? |
| Neal: | That's my guess |
| Nick: | was he? |
| Neal: | BUT |
| Neal: | There have been two distinct battle armors |
| Nick: | there was a drastic shift in Luthor between Superman under Loeb, and Superman/Batman under Loeb |
| Neal: | Might just be artists, but there was one stolen in Identity Crisis |
| Neal: | So maybe one Luthor in the old one, one in the new? |
| Barry: | i agree on the loeb superman/batman luthor |
| Neal: | One is more bulky, like in S/B (the one that the VU Luthor has) |
| Steve: | So you think one Luthor has a battle armor with Kryptonite in the gloves, and the other doesn't? |
| Neal: | And one is more sleek and updated, the one that the Loeb Luthor has |
| Nick: | We know S/B was in on the build up to crisis, I think that might have been the break point for Luthor |
| Neal: | Might be at that. |
| Barry: | steve the reason i agree with you though that we're dealing with precrisis versions of characters is remember the last issue of jla that led into crisis |
| Neal: | Yeah, because Lex disappears, perfect opportunity for another to take his place. |
| Barry: | someone that the watchtower recognized as superman buzzed into the tower |
| Barry: | i believe it was the superman of earth 1 |
| Neal: | Yep. |
| Neal: | Likewise. |
| Nick: | i agree, but how did he get "out" of Alex Luthor |
| Barry: | not earth 2 |
| Barry: | earth 1 |
| Nick: | ah |
| Nick: | yes |
| Neal: | You might want to clarify for readers, Barry... |
| Nick: | well then...how did he survive Crisis 1? |
| Neal: | The difference (now that I've finally gotten it straight) |
| Barry: | i'm so glad all this useless knowledge is relevant again |
| Neal: | Heh. Wolfman's getting a nickel for every new fan! |
| Nick: | i'm not, there's a reason we had the first crisis |
| Neal: | He must have bribed Johns |
| Barry: | Generally |
| Barry: | the idea has been how u deal with aging comic characters in a timeless genre |
| Barry: | theres been a superman since 1938 |
| Barry: | that superman was the earth 2 superman |
| Barry: | around "the birth of rock n roll" so old jla issues say |
| Barry: | came the heroes of earth 1 |
| Neal: | He's got the white shock of hair |
| Neal: | Reed Richards style |
| Barry: | and it was the earth 1 heroes who were the main universe that imploded during the first crisis |
| Barry: | along with earth 2 |
| Steve: | "Crisis on Infinite Earths" |
| Barry: | and earth s (the shazam heroes) |
| Barry: | and earth x (the freedom fighters universe) |
| Neal: | I was going to suggest a big chart, but they're ALL over the place on the net right now. |
| Barry: | and earth 4 (the blue beetle universe) |
| Barry: | those earths all eventually merged into earth dc |
| Nick: | i should probably reread crisis one of these days |
| Barry: | which has been the rule of law in the dcu since 1986 |
| Barry: | one earth |
| Nick: | except for 'elseworlds' comics |
| Nick: | and birthright sadly |
| Barry: | does anyone recall how the kingdom come superman turned into the alan moore superman in a recent superman batman story |
| Neal: | Of late we've had the Crime syndicate return...not under the auspices of Earth-3 though, right? |
| Neal: | Yes... |
| Nick: | define alan moore superman |
| Nick: | they've allowed the anti-matter universe, but that's it |
| Barry: | the earth 1 adventures ended around the time of the first crisis |
| Neal: | That says to me that they're going to perhaps say that the "ending/future" Superman, a la the Dark Knight Returns Batman, is constantly in flux |
| Barry: | with a last story before the john byrne revamp with Man of Steel |
| Barry: | alan moore wrote "the last superman story" that was a 2 parter in superman and action |
| Nick: | yeah |
| Neal: | Which is the Superman that we see Kingdom Come Superman CHANGE INTO when he fixes his own future in S/B |
| Neal: | Or presumably the main Superman's future |
| Barry: | my theory is because the kingdom come superman is (and this seems obvious) the earth 1 superman |
| Nick: | i saw that as just a nod to moore's work, not moore's superman exactly |
| Steve: | Well actually, there's been a move lately to have all alternate versions access to the DCU... in the recent "Superman/Batman" we've seen Bizarro and Batzarro interact with the "Red Son" Superman and the "Batman Beyond" Batman... |
| Neal: | It seems that Loeb has been peripheral in terms of continuity, but unhesitant to drop Crisis hints. They could be integral notions to the plot, they could just be fanboy moments. I'm curious. |
| Neal: | Yeah....Earth-A (Animation). Heh. |
| Nick: | Knowing Loeb, I'd bet on fanboy moments more than anything |
| Steve: | Agreed |
| Neal: | Yeah, that's my inclination. And not knocking it, I'm just guessing it won't factor too much into the Crisis |
| Barry: | even if that's how loeb intends them it doesnt mean that's how dc is gonna use them though |
| Neal: | Sure |
| Nick: | true |
| Barry: | theyve made several writers full time careers the plot holes from Identity Crisis |
| Neal: | Especially the different colors of K. I'll bet that hits into the Crisis somehow. There's a whole BOX of Kryptonite out there. Something tells me some Supermen are going to be dying, given Johns's foreshadow |
| Steve: | OK. So what's next? |
| Neal: | The resolution of all the minis? |
| Neal: | Or lack thereof? |
| Nick: | which was to be expected |
| Neal: | Yes. |
| Neal: | I liked it |
| Nick: | they need to get a little more of our money with those specials in two months |
| Nick: | not that i can complain, they're worth every penny |
| Neal: | I'm wondering why the heck Luthor shot Pariah. He'd know what was going on, right? |
| Neal: | (Pre-Crisis Luthor, maybe) |
| Barry: | my impression was that part of why we're in a crisis is because these 4 minis are essentially still going on |
| Nick: | I don't even know what to think about that until we know who that Luthor was |
| Neal: | Yes....that's my impression as well |
| Nick: | yeah, those minis are the crisis |
| Neal: | That sub he was in ring any pre-Crisis bells? |
| Neal: | It seemed familiar from my childhood |
| Neal: | Though I can't place it |
| Nick: | it didn't for me |
| Barry: | me either but the first person who identifies it in the comments section wins nothing |
| Neal: | Here's a good question. Say they go to plaid (doubtful they will), but say they reintroduce ALL of the multi-verses. Think folks can handle it? My guess is, with the internet, they can. |
| Steve: | What sub are you talking about? |
| Neal: | The Superman Homepage No-Prize. :) |
| Neal: | The Anti-Monitor Baldy |
| Neal: | The one the "other" Luthor shoots himself out of to hover above Metropolis |
| Neal: | After he suits up. |
| Nick: | well, considering they already did that with hypertime (insert groan here) I think they can handle it |
| Neal: | VU 6 |
| Barry: | I think fans were always intelligent enough to "get it" |
| Nick: | I just don't see a reason to reintroduce the multiverse...since we already have it |
| Neal: | Agreed. |
| Nick: | elseworlds, all-stars, wildstorm |
| Barry: | the idea was do we point the genre toward the fans we have or the fans we dont have |
| Neal: | I just always see the one comment, "PEOPLE CAN'T KEEP TRACK OF ALL THIS! MY HEAD JUST EXPLODED ALL OVER MY CAT!" You know? |
| Nick: | they're using different earths every month |
| Barry: | and i think it used to be that dc marketed to the fans they didnt have in terms of content |
| Barry: | and that formed the crux of the first crisis |
| Steve: | I don't think "Infinite Crisis" lends itself to new fans at all |
| Nick: | i think they need to point towards the fans they do have |
| Barry: | i think ur right nick |
| Neal: | How about the supposed "Death List?", much maligned or much beloved. |
| Barry: | i think fandom has grown up since 1985 |
| Nick: | definitely |
| Nick: | is there a specific death list you're refering to? |
| Neal: | I have a clue as to one of the guys who is gonna die (Shan't spoil it), but needless to say, heads will roll....do you guys agree with the creator line that suffering proves heroism? |
| Steve: | My biggest problem is helping new fans find a place to jump on board |
| Neal: | Just that rumor that the DC editors have a "You can kill these guys" list laying around for events |
| Nick: | i think with comics, it will always be hard, just like its not easy to start watching a tv show after a season or two |
| Nick: | but with the internet, anyone who wants to learn can |
| Neal: | Yeah, that's my take. I think because of pages like ours, ANY fool can jump in, read a few summaries, and have fun |
| Barry: | there is certainly a notion that death isnt permanent |
| Nick: | i agree |
| Neal: | Yeah...even BUCKY lives! |
| Nick: | thats why i didn't get upset about Beetle |
| Nick: | I loved Ted, but if DC thinks it was a mistake he'll just be back later |
| Neal: | ALL of the "never returns", Bucky, Gwen, Ben, and even Jason have ALL been back in the last year |
| Barry: | only barry allen stays dead and who knows if that'll still be the case after all this |
| Nick: | he's coming back |
| Barry: | even barbara gordon (batgirl) is on her way to walking |
| Neal: | He has one more appearance....so they say |
| Nick: | wally's days are numbered |
| Neal: | Yeah, oy. |
| Neal: | Is there anyone that's stayed dead? |
| Neal: | Is there a reason someone should, for that matter? |
| Neal: | I guess it's the nature of an infinite story. You HAVE to get recursive |
| Nick: | i don't think so |
| Steve: | Answer me this... Which Mongul was in IC #1? |
| Nick: | if it tells a good story, resurrect anyone you need to |
| Barry: | well as a pragmatic and legal matter characters need to appear in print to retain intellectual property rights |
| Neal: | If DC had a beginning, a middle, and an end, it'd be easier to plot the ultimate demise of each hero. |
| Neal: | Mongul 2, the son of the original Mongul |
| Nick: | i wondered the same thing steve |
| Steve: | Didn't he die Neal? |
| Nick: | i thought so too |
| Steve: | I thought only Mongal was alive! |
| Neal: | That I'm unsure on, but I did read somewhere that it was Mongul 2, not Mongul 1. |
| Barry: | steve i thought so too |
| Neal: | I don't know what happened to Mongul after he trained Superman |
| Neal: | That's my last bit |
| Neal: | I could be wrong on that, though. I just recall reading it on a website while doing my research. The idea surprised me |
| Barry: | some people may be unaware that mongul's inclusion was intended as homage |
| Steve: | Maybe he's a multi-verse version! :D |
| Neal: | A pretty good one, too. To "For the Man Who Has Everything" |
| Nick: | and if they are, they need to pick up the DC stories of Alan Moore trade that comes out in January |
| Barry: | wow dc owes u a nickel |
| Steve: | I was pretty sure that Doomsday killed Mongul during the "Our World's At War" saga... |
| Nick: | darn right they do |
| Neal: | So let's put it this way...you think any status quo is going to change for Superman? The reason Superman from Earth-2 busted out was the chance to save "Her". Think they mean Lois? |
| Neal: | Or Supergirl, per Crisis tradition? |
| Nick: | i wondered about that too |
| Neal: | Yes! |
| Neal: | That's right, Steve! |
| Neal: | I forgot that |
| Nick: | I don't think its Lois |
| Nick: | Supergirl...maybe |
| Barry: | i think geoff intends to change superman's status quo |
| Barry: | otherwise why would he have had batman say what he did |
| Nick: | I do find Kara's resurrection right before Crisis very suspect... |
| Nick: | I LOVED that line |
| Barry: | that superman hasnt inspired anyone since he was dead |
| Neal: | You think they'll whack the Supergirl in Exile? |
| Steve: | I thought Superman from Earth-2 meant Supergirl when I read that |
| Barry: | that's a major acknowlegement of a lotta years of not real inspiring stories |
| Neal: | Yeah....that was a bit rough for me. |
| Nick: | I thought it was harsh |
| Nick: | but if you look at it from Bruce's perspective, i can see why he might say something like that |
| Neal: | I think a lot of it is the general comic world's view. We're very insular in that we love Superman, but people LOVE to bash him without reading the stories. Johns, however, I know he's encyclopedic, he's read them.... |
| Neal: | Yes. |
| Neal: | Oh, I didn't say it was wrong for him to say. Just a brutally good character moment. |
| Steve: | Doesn't an up-coming issue of Supergirl state "The Maid of Might vs the Girl of Steel"? |
| Neal: | Like saying, "Tell that to Barbara." in response |
| Barry: | i think theres some truth to it if ur a fan too - the last time a superman story got people from the non comics world to pay attention was when he died |
| Neal: | Or "Sara" if he wanted to get really mean. |
| Neal: | Yes...that had me curious to see if she was returning. |
| Barry: | dc direct gives a clue |
| Steve: | Could mean that Linda Danvers might come out of retirement... |
| Nick: | I sure hope so |
| Barry: | its the nasty supergirl that darkseid made her into |
| Steve: | Barry, you think? |
| Nick: | worst cancellation ever, davids supergirl series |
| Neal: | Next to Man of Steel. |
| Neal: | Heh |
| Neal: | I miss that book. |
| Nick: | me too |
| Barry: | i think so because the product solicitations for the same month includes that nasty supergirl |
| Neal: | I miss Bog, heck. |
| Barry: | but i'm a cynic |
| Nick: | him, i do not miss |
| Nick: | never liked Bog's work |
| Neal: | How about that thing in space. What the heck is that? |
| Steve: | Barry, could just be a coincidence... I mean we see action figures coming out all the time... that aren't tied in to the comics for that month |
| Nick: | the rift? |
| Neal: | Yeah. |
| Steve: | I actually really liked Bog's work |
| Barry: | steve absolutely just my feeling |
| Nick: | the easy answer is that its another crisis/zero hour entropy wave |
| Nick: | but i think thats too obvious |
| Neal: | If Pariah is on Earth...that's GOTTA be bad... you know? |
| Nick: | very true |
| Nick: | im thinking some type of rift to the anti-matter universe? |
| Barry: | since donna troy - wonder woman's sister - is heading the delegation of heroes headed to the wave |
| Neal: | They say it's NOT a reboot, categorically, but how can they destroy a universe and not reboot? And if Pariah's there...it kinda means the end is nigh. |
| Barry: | heres a question |
| Barry: | what are her powers? |
| Nick: | that would tie in well to Oa not being the center anymore |
| Nick: | um, wonder powers? |
| Neal: | I'm pretty lost on it. I didn't read the Donna Troy series because it was a bit too thick for me, and I'm short cash. |
| Steve: | And if the wizard Shazam is dead, can Captain Marvel still function? |
| Nick: | you didn't miss much neal |
| Barry: | i read it and i still dont know what her powers are neal |
| Nick: | he survived the fall, so i think so |
| Barry: | honestly i'm not being sarcastic |
| Neal: | Heh. |
| Neal: | Sounds like Superman villains two years ago. |
| Barry: | i'd be a lot more concerned about capt' marvel if black adam, captain marvel junior, and mary werent running around too |
| Nick: | true |
| Steve: | Well it's all very interesting, and I think we have one heck of a ride heading our way over the next 6 issues |
| Neal: | The whole unravelling of magic/end of Satanus has me confused... |
| Nick: | I was upset at that, one of the last leftovers from the early 90s |
| Neal: | Very true. And I'm sure when the changes start a'comin', we're gonna need another one of these councils. |
| Nick: | issue 4, that's supposed to be the big one |
| Steve: | We'll attempt to do a new K Council chat after each issue I think |
| Neal: | There's still the OTHER Krypto! It will return! |
| Neal: | Sounds like a great plan. |
| Nick: | I like that idea steve |
| Nick: | He's dead, he turned green! |
| Barry: | ya things are falling apart and that poor dog's locked in the fortress |
| Neal: | If you guys (readers) have any questions, feel free to shoot it to any of us. We'll bring it up. |
| Barry: | not kewl clark |
| Steve: | OK. Any parting shots before we wrap this one up |
| Neal: | Oh, I mean BIBBO'S Krypto, Barry. Heh. |
| Neal: | The first one Conner took care of. |
| Neal: | Circa 1994 |
| Nick: | he'll save us all! |
| Barry: | oh ya - didnt u see him in the earth 2 lois kent's pocket ? |
| Neal: | Yes. Superman is NOT whining. He has a reason to be upset. His world's unravelling. |
| Nick: | agreed, i think johns wrote the big three perfectly |
| Neal: | Alexander Luthor ATE him! That fink! He's really Clayface, you watch. |
| Neal: | Likewise. |
| Nick: | finally the fracturing of those is done right |
| Neal: | Actually, you're taking care of him, right Barry? :) |
| Nick: | what do you think the OMACs are doing? |
| Neal: | Making guest appearances in EVERY book. |
| Neal: | Heh |
| Steve: | Well that about wraps up the Kryptonian Council for this time around... Thanks guys for an interesting chat. |
| Neal: | Thank you, Steve, guys. Twas fun! Catch you all next month. |
| Barry: | Thanks all - this was a good one |
| Nick: | Thanks everybody, see you next month. |
Kryptonian Council Meetings
- June 2005 - Is the Superman Homepage anti-Smallville?
- October 2005 - Infinite Crisis #1
- November 2005 - Infinite Crisis #2
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #3
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #4
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis #5
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis: Secret Files & Origins 2006
- April 2006 - Infinite Crisis #6
- May 2006 - Infinite Crisis #7
- May 2006 - Superman Returns Theatrical Trailer
- May 2007 - Discussing “52”
