Kryptonian Council
Kryptonian Council
The Staff of the Superman Homepage Speak Out
[Date: March 2006]Hey, folks! Welcome to the Kryptonian Council! This is a free-form discussion where I and members of the Superman Homepage writing team will be talking freely about issues that affect the site and Superman in general. It's a little like Radio KAL, only it's more free-form. You'll find typos, off the cuff remarks. It's the website at its rawest, and it's supposed to be that way. Everything with a grain of salt, and humor, all the while confronting the issues of concern to a Superman fan. It's a way to extend the idea behind Radio KAL to multiple people, without having a bunch of people talking over each other, and we hope to make it a regular fixture here at the Superman Homepage, or at least a fixture for every time something major happens in the Superman world.
This time around we take a look at the "Secret Files & Origins" issue of the huge DC Universe event "Infinite Crisis". If you have suggestions for future topics, please send them in to either Steve Younis or Neal Bailey. Enjoy!
| Steve: | Welcome to another Superman Homepage Kryptonian Council meeting to discuss "Infinite Crisis: Secret Files & Origins 2006". Today I'm joined by Neal Bailey, Barry Freiman and Jeffrey Bridges. Welcome guys! |
| Neal: | Hey, everyone |
| Jeffrey: | Hello hello |
| Barry: | Hi |
| Steve: | OK. Sometimes we find that fans tend not to buy these Secret Files issues, thinking they're just gimmicks, so let's go through the issue and discuss what was involved |
| Neal: | Okay, this time we're trying an agenda to try and focus things a bit much. Not set in stone, per ce, but it's a way to kind of keep things coherent. The idea goes like this, I ask a question, we debate, and when it's winding down, we'll pop the next question. |
| Steve: | Sounds good... shoot |
| Jeffrey: | Mmm, pop. |
| Neal: | I divided it up this week into three categories for the plot and one external summation, starting with Superboy questions... |
| Neal: | Question one: Do you think Superboy, given that he lost his family and his entire universe, is justified in his actions? Especially given what he's being forced to watch...do you have sympathy for him? |
| Steve: | You know, I do. |
| Jeffrey: | What he's doing will take innocent lives, and that's hard to justify. But I certainly understand his motivations and, in his head, he's absolutely justified and I certainly sympathize with him. |
| Steve: | He had a life, he had loving parents, a girlfriend... new found powers. He had it all in front of him, and it was taken away in the blink of an eye |
| Neal: | I know if my family were wiped out, I might do some awful, awful things on the chance of getting them back. But then, I don't have an S on my chest. That puts a moral arbiter anchor around your neck too, and he knows that Superman isn't buying it |
| Steve: | It doesn't justify his actions, but I can understand why he's so angry and lost |
| Jeffrey: | More than that, I think it was Alex Luthor's manipulations that have convinced him that the way things are now is not how it's supposed to be. |
| Neal: | With Alex it seems more like power, with Superboy, it's almost despair turning to desperation |
| Steve: | The thing "Secret Files" helped define was why Superboy is so angry |
| Neal: | Yeah, people gave that a lot of flack as being something one could assume, and I guess you could, but it also helps solidify why they got to where they are. |
| Jeffrey: | Yeah, it really cleared up a whole lot about IC for me. It seemed like it should have almost been another IC issue. |
| Steve: | This issue showed us readers Superboy's life, how Alex is manipulating the replays on screen that Superboy is watching |
| Neal: | Next question, related: Is it better, storywise, to craft a villain one can feel sympathy for? |
| Steve: | Meaning Superboy? |
| Neal: | Yeah. I feel kind of bad that I feel for a guy who's knocking planets into each other. |
| Jeffrey: | Absolutely. You can understand them, and any character you understand is umpteen times better than a character who's bad for the sake of having an antagonist. |
| Steve: | Yeah, but is he the REAL villain of the story... I don't think so |
| Jeffrey: | No, of course not |
| Steve: | He's kind of the middle-ground... being manipulated by a greater evil |
| Neal: | I'm pretty much of that school. You can't really relate to Luthor in Superman: The Movie, because he's just, well, he's rotten and evil. There's no motivation he has most people could agree with. Superboy, on the other hand... |
| Jeffrey: | He's just a poor kid with unbelievable power who's been horribly manipulated |
| Neal: | Exactly |
| Jeffrey: | And who's also been kept in a purgatory of never-ending awkward teen angst |
| Steve: | That's gotta suck big time! :P |
| Jeffrey: | That's hard enough when it only lasts for ten years, and he's been stuck there and not allowed to grow and mature |
| Neal: | Another question is the nature of his corruption. Many times, those at the end of a Faustian bargain aren't really held fully responsible. Do you think Alex drove him mad consciously, do you think it was the "Heaven", or |
| Jeffrey: | As it said in the book, he knows he'll never get to be Superman |
| Neal: | do you think it was Superboy himself? |
| Jeffrey: | I think it was Alex by and large |
| Barry: | i think alex drove him mad knowing what he was doing |
| Jeffrey: | Although clearly part of Superboy was wanting something like that to happen to help him through his pain |
| Neal: | The comic seemed to make it very much Alex centered. He would squint his eyes, and bang. The family images would appear |
| Steve: | Yeah, Alex definitely knows what he's doing... He's purposely manipulating Superboy's emotions |
| Jeffrey: | Yes indeed |
| Neal: | I go into that later in the agenda, Alex's evil, but I'm pretty much agreed there. |
| Steve: | Why else would he show him the death of his parents and girlfriend on the current earth? |
| Jeffrey: | There is no other reason. It was to movitate him further into the manipulation. |
| Steve: | He knew that would take him over the edge |
| Neal: | Here's one Barry suggested: It appears they changed the origin of Superboy Prime. In DC Presents 87, his first story, he was teleported to Earth, the reason his parents didn't know they had an alien... Now he was rocketed to Earth, and adds a new wrinkle to the story. Now he's less of someone who wouldn't know he was an alien, and more someone who could start running around in red, yellow, and blue. |
| Barry: | and if his parents found him in a rocket, bad idea to name him clark |
| Neal: | You think it was just them not knowing? Or checking? "Them" being the writers |
| Jeffrey: | You think they wouldn't even bother to check? I have to think they would have checked, and thus this is a conscious change |
| Neal: | I would if I were writing it. But given a history of errors like that, I have to think it's possible they just didn't. |
| Barry: | it isn't as if the history of the earth prime superboy is so long and convoluted that they couldnt track all his appearances down... there was dc presents, a brief appearance in "superman", and then rite into crisis |
| Jeffrey: | Why I don't know, but I think it's safe to say the vast majority of people aren't aware of the specifics of his previous origin story |
| Steve: | So if it was done purposely... why? |
| Neal: | I don't know, it's plastered all over the internet. I think a lot of people know, if they care to, anyway. |
| Barry: | to parallel the generally accepted superman origin i would guess |
| Neal: | I'm thinking since it doesn't add anything to the story it was a mistake |
| Barry: | i did a write up about a month or so ago for the site on the earth prime superboy's origin - there's also a kryptonian who teleported to earth after the baby but was never heard from again |
| Neal: | Interesting. Just mentioned in passing? |
| Barry: | it was the explanation for why jorel and lara didnt follow |
| Jeffrey: | They just sent... someone else? |
| Barry: | the evil scientist mucked up the teleporter's works |
| Jeffrey: | Ahh |
| Neal: | Here's some about Superman: Do you think, given the clues, like Superboy being angry and Alex not finding a cure despite promised paradise, that Superman was remiss in not getting to the bottom of things? |
| Jeffrey: | I think he was, yes. But then he had other things on his mind |
| Neal: | In other words, is he culpable for the Infinite Crisis. Even to a small degree |
| Jeffrey: | To a small degree, yes, but who could fault him for being so concerned about Lois? |
| Barry: | yes but no more culpable than our superman -- the guy who hasnt been inspiring people since he died |
| Steve: | I'm a bit disappointed in Superman's lack of action up to this point... I know he's worried sick about Lois... but he has super-hearing and other powers which should have alerted him to Alex's machinations |
| Jeffrey: | I think he's just been too focused on the one problem, which is what Alex was counting on. It's like he's got blinders on. |
| Neal: | I don't know. I see it like a Hitler youth. You tell the kid everything they're doing is right, that it's protecting the people they love, sometimes you don't see ovens, you see optimism. That might be the fatal flaw of morality in black and white |
| Barry: | i fault his concern for lois a little bit -- this isn't the guy who was dean cain lifting off the ground at his first site of lois lane - this is the guy who used to get off on playing mind games with her |
| Neal: | The guy who relished that Lois' only wish was to marry Supes and he wasn't ever going to let that happen. Heh |
| Steve: | I agree, Alex is manipulating him as much as he is Superboy |
| Barry: | and steve i think their powers dont function at full capacity in limbo |
| Neal: | I see Superboy as much more culpable, but I think Superman would have seen the signs. I have much less sympathy for Earth-2 Superman than most people. |
| Barry: | so perhaps e-2 supes doesnt have super hearing ... |
| Jeffrey: | Well how often has he needed to use it in... wherever they are? Probably not at all. |
| Steve: | Neal, in your review you indicated that you thought each time Superboy hit the "wall" that Lois got a little bit more sick... I didn't catch that when I read it... Did anyone else? |
| Jeffrey: | I did. It seemed like a "wave" or something was coming off the wall and causing her pain or something |
| Barry: | maybe her life force is what brought back jason todd et al |
| Neal: | Next question, related: Superman refuses Alex's offers until the very last minute The straw that breaks his back is the same thing he's now been seeing (from this issue) for some time. Isn't he just like Superboy, then? |
| Steve: | Offers? |
| Neal: | Alex kept trying to convince Supes that the universe was wrong, just like Superboy. And eventually, Superman does what Superboy did. And busts through at Alex's behest |
| Jeffrey: | Superman only does it because he thinks it's the only way to save Lois. Superboy does it becaue he thinks the whole universe is wrong and needs to be righted |
| Neal: | Right, but by the same token, Superboy only does it because he thinks it will save his family |
| Jeffrey: | I didn't get that as Superboy's only motivation |
| Barry: | there is certainly an interesting dichotomy between the supermans (all 3) and the luthors - and they said at the beginning that for every superman theres a luthor |
| Steve: | What I don't understand is why Superman is able to break the wall completely and free them all, but Superboy (who is obviously stronger than Kal-L (moving planets and all)) isn't |
| Jeffrey: | I thought he was also doing it because Alex convinced him that none of what is should be. |
| Barry: | i thought superboy did break the wall completely - he did get through after all |
| Neal: | I think the wall Superman broke was a bit of an illusion crafted by Alex. Not really what freed them, but a fake wall that Alex had up in front of what Superboy already did. |
| Steve: | Oh, ok... Yes, I guess Superboy did break through totally... allowing he and Alex to play their game during the whole lead up. It allowed Alex to pretend to be Lex Luthor |
| Neal: | Alex questions: Alex KNEW Lois was dying, and likely why. He's also trying to remake the universe in his image. ON Earth-3, he HAS to be a good guy, to balance the chaos. Otherwise, the JLA would be able to beat the Crime Syndicate, or, even more, Ultraman would somehow have to be inherently good. Does this seem impossible to you? |
| Barry: | i wonder if that was a luthor-style move to get superman to accept the plan he had to get him to take an affirmative action (ie breaking thru) |
| Jeffrey: | I think Alex is still a good guy, in his own head. I think he believes what he's doing is right and that what exists is wrong and possibly evil. |
| Neal: | That's a good explanation |
| Barry: | just like a luthor |
| Jeffrey: | So by trying to find the "perfect earth" he's trying to do what he sees as the ultimate good |
| Barry: | our lex doesnt see himself as evil either |
| Jeffrey: | Right |
| Steve: | I don't know... that's a tough one... Although Alex does know he's manipulating Superboy and Superman... so that's not exactly a "good" thing to do |
| Barry: | for his "greater good"... as a luthor he of course thinks he knows better than any superman |
| Jeffrey: | But it serves a higher purpose. The ends justify the means when you're playing with so much at stake, in his head. |
| Neal: | Barry has a good point there. Perception of good and the actuality are two very differing things. Hitler probably thought he was right (Yeah, I know, me and the fuhrer references. Still...) |
| Steve: | Yeah, but doesn't a "good guy" do things for other people's "greater good" not his own? |
| Jeffrey: | Of course. Which is why Alex is only a good guy in his own head |
| Steve: | I mean Superman is a good guy... he wouldn't manipulate people to achieve a "greater good" |
| Neal: | He knows he's killing Lois. He already called her a necessary sacrifice |
| Jeffrey: | He doesn't see that what he's doing is bad for a whole lot of people, and/or he doesn't care because he feels those people shouldn't actually exist anyway |
| Barry: | interesting that alex is weaving thru a morality maze to justify his actions when that is the same thing he is accusing earth dc of |
| Steve: | I understand his motivations... I'm just trying to answer Neal's question |
| Neal: | That's my next question, and related: What does the perfect universe offer Alex? My answer: Quite a hedonistic lot |
| Jeffrey: | Probably what he's been longing for. Family, friends and a life. |
| Neal: | Love |
| Barry: | well a perfect universe would make alex a child again then wouldnt it |
| Jeffrey: | Probably so |
| Neal: | Really, too, he's mentally probably only, what, ten? Maybe much less, in comic time. But then the Heaven has no time, so he could be 800 |
| Neal: | Here's a plausibility question. If Superboy plus a slight bit of Alex's power broke the wall, why didn't Alex just break the wall? |
| Barry: | he says he needs earth 2 superman - it all starts with him |
| Jeffrey: | Because Alex does not = Alex plus a little bit of Superboy :) I'm guessing neither were powerful enough on their own to do it |
| Barry: | see and i think there is an emotional component to why he needed superman to think it was his idea |
| Neal: | I guess what I'm getting at is that it goes more to Alex's villainy. If he knew he could break the wall and how, he sadistically tortured Superboy purposefully to get him to do his bidding by not showing him earlier |
| Jeffrey: | Well yes. But letting him out before he was fully able to be manipulated wouldn't have helped his plan for a "perfect earth" so it was all clearly premeditated |
| Neal: | True. He's an ends justify the means guy. Whether that's right or not...good debate there. I have the nuts and bolts questions now... |
| Jeffrey: | Whether it's right or not depends on the situation and the people involved. Alex was able to manipulate Kal-L into becoming that sort of person as well, although I imagine he'll catch on to the error of his ways before it's over. |
| Neal: | First nut and bolt question: This issue, according to Eddie, was supposed to finally and definitively explain Birthright. Stupid question, but do you think it did? |
| Jeffrey: | I must have missed it. I didn't see any connection to Birthright whatsoever. |
| Neal: | There was one mention. The Birthright rocket in one of Superboy's punches |
| Barry: | no - only one thing can reconcile birthright - new and complete origins for superman and supergirl. The whole "i dont remember" thing is ridiculous |
| Jeffrey: | But there were other rockets too |
| Jeffrey: | How does that reconcile anything? It's just a picture of a rocket! :P |
| Neal: | The follow up, if I got the answer that I thought I was going to get, was is Infinite Crisis making continuity more convoluted or less convoluted? |
| Barry: | all it says is both origins remain a possibility |
| Neal: | I noticed that was the Silver Age rocket, was it not? |
| Jeffrey: | Which clears nothing up at all. Who knows. I suppose that depends on what happens in the remaining two issues and how it ends. |
| Barry: | less convoluted absolutely -- it at least makes making things less convoluted more likely |
| Neal: | I've heard the rumors of how Silver Age Superman will factor in. I've heard stuff up to and including that Silver Age Supes was replacing modern Supes (har). I think it's gonna be like "This is how it is now. What happened in the past, we don't care." And that will be a coherent framework, at least. |
| Barry: | hey remember i started with comics in the late 60s early 70s. my superman is the earth 1 superman, and the earth dc superman isn't him |
| Jeffrey: | What happened to SA Supes? Didn't he become modern Supes? |
| Neal: | He went off with his moustache and had a kid with Lois (Per recent Superman/Batman) |
| Jeffrey: | That was him? I had no idea. |
| Barry: | the earth 1 superman was a tv newsman, he had a fortress in the arctic with a big yellow key, a cousin supergirl who died 20 years ago |
| Neal: | Yeah. In "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow", it's revealed that he basically ends up in a kind of Heaven with Lois. Kind of like GA Supes |
| Jeffrey: | Ahh, okay |
| Neal: | Silver Age Luthor also become Luthoriac, and I believe dies? Barry? You're my point man on that |
| Barry: | if we take the "last superman story" as gospel then yes neal |
| Neal: | Thanks, Barry. And final question: What is making these @#*% books so LATE? |
| Jeffrey: | Gremlins. |
| Neal: | I think it's one of Superboy's punches. Has to be |
| Barry: | i reviewed superman / shazam -- the 4 issue series that started about 7 months ago |
| Jeffrey: | They steal the issues in the night to line their own cages with. So DC has to print more. |
| Neal: | Am I crazy, or are ALL of the major books getting later and later? For both companies? |
| Barry: | i think they are so focused on getting 52 out on time that anything that isnt time sensitive takes a back seat |
| Steve: | I can understand with big books like these... but limited issue miniseries outside continuity should be completed before going to print... |
| Barry: | i mean they end up late with even one issue of 52 and with everything theyve said that entire series ends up considered a "failure" |
| Steve: | Well guys, that's about it for this Kryptonian Council meeting. Any last minute thoughts? |
| Neal: | Superman/Batman in particular, what year did it start? |
| Barry: | well i think the loeb titles certainly deserve some slack |
| Jeffrey: | Any book with Supergirl being on-time would be a big plus. I think she's cursed. Stuck in a vat of Slo-Tyme (TM). |
| Barry: | given what he went thru and i applaud dc for not making him crazy when he was mourning |
| Neal: | That's true. I was under the impression, though, that it was more artists. |
| Jeffrey: | I think it has to be, especially on Supergirl. Rucka's never been late that I know of, and now his first Supergirl issue is late and Churchill is still on the book. So I think it's mostly got to be artists |
| Steve: | OK. Well thanks for your time again guys. We'll get another K Council going for the next issue of IC |
| Neal: | Thanks, guys! |
| Steve: | Until next time... Bye! |
| Jeffrey: | Anyway, good discussion. :) |
| Neal: | Goodbye, all! |
Kryptonian Council Meetings
- June 2005 - Is the Superman Homepage anti-Smallville?
- October 2005 - Infinite Crisis #1
- November 2005 - Infinite Crisis #2
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #3
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #4
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis #5
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis: Secret Files & Origins 2006
- April 2006 - Infinite Crisis #6
- May 2006 - Infinite Crisis #7
- May 2006 - Superman Returns Theatrical Trailer
- May 2007 - Discussing “52”
