Kryptonian Council
Kryptonian Council
The Staff of the Superman Homepage Speak Out
[Date: May 2006]Hey, folks! Welcome to the Kryptonian Council! This is a free-form discussion where I and members of the Superman Homepage writing team will be talking freely about issues that affect the site and Superman in general. It's a little like Radio KAL, only it's more free-form. You'll find typos, off the cuff remarks. It's the website at its rawest, and it's supposed to be that way. Everything with a grain of salt, and humor, all the while confronting the issues of concern to a Superman fan. It's a way to extend the idea behind Radio KAL to multiple people, without having a bunch of people talking over each other, and we hope to make it a regular fixture here at the Superman Homepage, or at least a fixture for every time something major happens in the Superman world.
This time around we take a look the 7th and final issue of the huge DC Universe event "Infinite Crisis". If you have suggestions for future topics, please send them in to either Steve Younis or Neal Bailey. Enjoy!
Steve: | Welcome to another Superman Homepage Kryptonian Council meeting. Today we're discussing the 7th and final issue of "Infinite Crisis". I'm Steve Younis, and I'm joined by Neal Bailey, Barry Freiman, and Jeffrey Bridges |
Neal: | Hello, everyone! Two months! |
Jeffrey: | Hooray for Infinite Crisis! |
Barry: | Well I survived another one. |
Neal: | I now have a whole new origin, and my Flash died |
Barry: | ya i flipped out when my retroactively new sister called last nite - of course she wanted to borrow $ |
Jeffrey: | At least you two still exist |
Steve: | OK, wanna get the ball rolling Neal? |
Neal: | Sure. Okay, guys. First order of business...the ending, obviously. There were four major plots leading into this series. Did the resolution to those plots satisfy? Were they sufficiently closed off and finalized? For instance, the space battle had very little finality to it by fan impression, but perhaps Brother Eye had an explosive finality. Thoughts? |
Steve: | I only read the Villains United and OMAC Project series, so I can't really comment on the Rann/Thanagar or other series... I didn't feel as if I missed much in IC not having read them |
Barry: | Whether intentional holes or not, DC's current mode of operation is to continue to fill in the blanks -- seems to me plot holes are a dc prerequisite by now. |
Jeffrey: | I think DOV and R/T were mostly unnecessary. I don't see how they had much, if anything, to do with IC |
Neal: | I'm pretty much with you. I kept waiting for the payoff in space, but all those heroes gathered just to give Alex a sore hand? |
Jeffrey: | Yeah, it really bugs me how pointless that all seemed |
Neal: | Speaking of resolution, do you think this was a fitting end for the original Superman? Does it beat "Heaven?" |
Barry: | that speaks to the eternal question -- is immortality really a good thing? |
Steve: | No, I don't think so. I know he says it never really ends... but I prefer to think of him as alive out there somewhere, then dead |
Jeffrey: | I do, yes. What bothers me more than that was Doomsday's two-page appearance and subsequent immediate dismissal. Don't get me wrong, I have no love for Doomsday, but what was the point of even having him there? |
Steve: | We'll get to Doomsday in a sec... |
Barry: | (by the way doomsday answers the question about the reference to superman disappearing after fighting doomsday in the one year later opening) |
Neal: | Yeah...I got inside info on that off the record a while back, it was hard to keep my tongue tied. Heh. |
Jeffrey: | True, Barry, but beyond that it served no purpose and just seemed like an afterthought |
Steve: | Yeah, true... but that allusion made it sound bigger than it actually was... but back to Kal-L... I didn't think it was a fitting ending for such an iconic figure |
Neal: | It really did go briefly. I figured it was more to make a point, but I still missed a big ole Doomsday battle. Doomsday hasn't been handled well since Doomsday Wars. I do think Superman went out in a very, very brutal way. |
Jeffrey: | Well he went out saving all of reality. You can't ask for a more heroic death than that. Could it have been a bigger, more involved scene? Absolutely, but that's a problem with execution, I think, and not the actual outcome |
Neal: | I don't think it was unfitting, he died in battle. But it did seem kind of arbitrary, in that he didn't have to take out Superboy mano-a-mano. He could have slammed him into the planet, teleported out, then hit the planet with something. That was my major gripe, that they went for drama over plausibility. But it was so dramatic, I couldn't complain. So...Superboy. Is this the end of Superboy Prime? And what's up with Superboy being introduced back into continuity? |
Steve: | Which Superboy do you mean (in your 2nd question)? |
Neal: | Our Superman as a young boy fighting crime. Per what was just lost in the court case |
Steve: | Who says he is? |
Jeffrey: | Yeah, I didn't pick up on that at all |
Neal: | Well, Alex mentions it in IC 7, saying Superman had exploits as a boy again, I believe. Paraphrased. I'll look it up now... |
Steve: | Doesn't mean he was Superboy |
Jeffrey: | That doesn't mean he was Superboy, though |
Barry: | they left that so open ended that its possible they are referring to the type of stuff clark does every week on smallville |
Jeffrey: | I think it's just meant to jive with Birthright, where he was going around the world doing super-deeds in his civvies for a while before becoming Superman |
Neal: | Exact line:There are recorded rumors of Superman's activities before his appearance in Metropolis |
Steve: | Just means that they know he was around, maybe like Martha's scrapbook stories |
Neal: | That doesn't mean "Superboy," but I don't think they'd pointedly allude to that without a reason |
Steve: | Wouldn't they have said he was Superboy... not just Superman before he arrived in Metropolis? |
Jeffrey: | Possibly, unless they're just covering their legal behinds |
Neal: | Well, what I think they're doing, myself is indicating that Smallville's style of Superboy is now going to be referenced in continuity |
Barry: | i read it like neal did but i read it as intentionally open ended |
Steve: | I think people are jumping to conclusions saying they're bringing back that Superman was Superboy |
Barry: | if the right story comes up that calls for clark to be superboy in costume it will happen |
Neal: | It's a good way to bring in Chloe....but I do see that it was intentionally open that way. I guess what I'm saying is that line indicates that the Byrne version of Clark jumping into the sky and discovering his powers at 18 might not be so canon any more |
Barry: | the other 2 things mentioned - diana back in the founding of the league and batman having joe chill back |
Neal: | Those I love, actually. |
Barry: | those were pre-crisis canon which i think there is an implication |
Jeffrey: | Wasn't all of Byrne's origin thrown out when Birthright came in anyway? |
Barry: | that the third thing mentioned is meant to refer to superboy |
Steve: | No Jeffrey... they were both still supposed to coexist somehow. Barry, I don't know, I think that's still a stretch |
Neal: | You know, I think they're messing with Birthright even more, given that no spacecrafts left before Kal-El's, and yet another came in 1932, according to the Johns story |
Jeffrey: | But that's... not... possible. o_O (head explodes) |
Steve: | 1938 Neal |
Neal: | Correct. Sorry. |
Barry: | 1938 and that's being addressed |
Neal: | Another question...were the "sins" mentioned for all characters resolved? |
Barry: | i think the heroes are committing all new sins - batman and wonder woman more than clark |
Neal: | I think Diana's was, barely. She helped redeem the anger of both Batman and Superman. But she still killed a guy. And her consequence? She FINDS herself? |
Jeffrey: | I get Bruce and Co. going off to train together, and I get Clark sans powers. I don't get Diana needing to "find herself" at all, especially coming off of the final Rucka run on her old book. |
Neal: | She's the only woman character in the DCU who's self-assured and understands herself and her place in the world... |
Steve: | Kind of... for Batman and Wonder Woman... He trusted his fellow heroes to help bring down Brother Eye. WW helped Batman realize that killing wasn't worth it when he faced Alex |
Barry: | i totally get diana needing to find herself |
Neal: | Exactly, Jeff |
Barry: | i don't get bruce leaving |
Neal: | Yeah, Bruce leaving bothered me too. |
Jeffrey: | Explain, Barry! |
Barry: | bruce wayne wouldn't leave gotham with tim and dick - leaving no one behind |
Jeffrey: | Well the Bat-books have hinted that he left someone to watch over the city while they were gone |
Neal: | I mean, he's so on-the-spot trained, like I say in my review...the reason he made Brother Eye was because he over-trained. Superman, what CAN he do with no powers. But then, why does he have no powers and why is he not flat-out DEAD? |
Barry: | diana is desperately in need of humanity i understand what she's doing - the amazons are gone, there is no mission so its time for her to learn what it really means to be a woman in "patriarch's world" |
Steve: | For some reason his Kryptonian cells aren't absorbing the yellow sunlight anymore |
Jeffrey: | But Bruce hadn't trained with Tim like he had with Dick, and that was a big point in the Bat-books. He and Dick were completely in tune with each other, and he and Tim weren't because he never let Tim get that close. |
Neal: | I guess the response is that it's an excuse to tell a good story, so you either forgive the implausibility or you don't. I wouldn't for Smallville. I will for Johns, because I know character will come with it |
Jeffrey: | So it makes sense to me, having kept up with the Bat-books |
Neal: | Next question:Do you think this is a continuity reboot, a ret-con, a tweak....how do you guys see it? |
Barry: | let's be honest -- the only real disappearance that really matters -- the disappearance that motivated them disappearing for a year -- is superman's -- so he can return in june |
Jeffrey: | I don't know, Barry. After reading Rucka's run, I think she was already plenty fully aware. It seems contrived, to me. |
Steve: | I'm confused somewhat by it all... |
Jeffrey: | I think it's kind of all those things rolled into one. It's not as clean as a total reboot, but there's more than just a couple tweaks going on |
Steve: | We have to buy 52 weekly stories to really work it all out |
Neal: | I don't know if it's really part of the IC arc. I think it's the next story down the line, and Johns tacked it onto the end of IC. Kind of like Reign has a totally different flavor from Death of. |
Jeffrey: | It's like they're trying to do a reboot without tossing out the stuff they liked from the last 20 years or something |
Neal: | I think we'll know more with 52. I'm hoping it's not just a b-lister's parade, but I have to trust all of the writers on this. Morrison is tangential with character, unfortunately, but the others involved are pretty straight on, and know what fans like |
Steve: | They need to do a "Who's Who, Who's Where, Who's Dead, Who's changed" profile book to let us all know what's the new status quo |
Neal: | And not to say I don't like Morrison, it's just hard to see him with Johns and Rucka. |
Barry: | i look at it as this was a good story - we're not talking about war of the gods thankfully -- time will tell its long term significance |
Neal: | I think that's what the History of DCU will offer. |
Jeffrey: | Good point, Neal |
Barry: | for a long time the crisis was story nongrata - the first one |
Neal: | And even if it doesn't, woot! Jurgens. Right? |
Barry: | every time u say "woot" i think of etta candy |
Jeffrey: | Did you see there's a different backup story in 52? The history of the DCU only goes for the first 8 or 12 issues, and then something else replaces it, but I can't remember what... Etta! Ha! :) |
Neal: | Or Teen Girl Squad. |
Steve: | The thing that bugs me is that when 52 ends we'll be 2 years later in the monthly comics |
Barry: | why does that bug you steve? |
Steve: | I don't know... it just seems like it'll be hard to follow |
Neal: | I think it's a good idea, but it has a bad taste in my mouth because of Azarello. We'll actually be THREE years ahead with Supes, Steve. |
Jeffrey: | We might not be. Normally one year our time doesn't equal one year of comic time |
Neal: | Er...is that a rabbit over there? |
Steve: | No really Neal... the books all caught up with Azzarello |
Barry: | I'm already far enough from "for tomorrow" that i pretend it didn't happen |
Neal: | Did they? See, it's just that confusing. :) |
Jeffrey: | Mmm, Azzarello lobotomy |
Neal: | This is. How. I must speak. To talk. Azarello. |
Steve: | Which is why all this moving around in different time slots makes me think fans will be confused |
Neal: | So, that brings me to another question:Birthright. What does this mean for Birthright? Anything? |
Steve: | Who knows!!?! |
Jeffrey: | Who knows? Like Steve says, I'm confused! :) |
Barry: | until we get a new "superman, this is your life" its all up in the air - certainly kara's origin didn't help any |
Steve: | Doomsday can't exist in Birthright's continuity, yet he showed up in IC |
Jeffrey: | You mean her already-retconned origin? :P |
Neal: | I asked Johns about that, and he said that he didn't know about that whole origin flaw. I'm guessing they're just ignoring it. Or don't care. Or whatever. It's frustrating. I wish Birthright had never happened, myself. |
Barry: | say what you will about the silver age, krypton and its inhabitants were true characters - we knew them, we cared about them even though they were all dead |
Neal: | Good story or not |
Barry: | and it made us care more about superman in knowing them - that's missing they need to deal with it |
Steve: | Can I ask a question? |
Neal: | Please! |
Steve: | This being the Superman Homepage... what has IC done to change Superman (other than him being powerless) |
Jeffrey: | Well I think he'll take more of an active leadership role, post-IC |
Steve: | What has been changed in his history, I mean? Continuity wise |
Jeffrey: | Oh. Um... |
Neal: | I think it's given him a deeper understanding of his history in the multiverse context. I also think he's come to terms with what happens when he loses control (Max Lord). To continuity, I just think he'll have been a type of Superboy |
Barry: | something in his past - he may have had more recorded pre-superman adventures than previously thought |
Neal: | Other than that, I don't see much. |
Jeffrey: | Yeah, the changes seem minor |
Steve: | So, are we going to get "The Untold Adventures of Superman as a boy"? If not, why mention it? |
Neal: | Like they said, they LIKE the continuity. I think they were just trying to make it sensible. And given that stories are constantly referencing the earlier exploits of Clark when continuity states he started at 18, it just brings it into line. Since Birthright, anyway. |
Jeffrey: | Maybe so. And maybe that's where Chloe shows up. |
Neal: | I'm guessing so as well. |
Barry: | well remember a movie comes this summer - it will influence continuity and the movie contradicts smallville it shows him leaping |
Neal: | I think Chloe's just going to show up, surprising everyone, at the end of some issue. |
Barry: | before "insurgence" |
Steve: | So really, IC did nothing to answer continuity questions in regards to Superman... the status quo is pretty much the same? |
Barry: | the status quo being 'we don't know' - yes |
Jeffrey: | Well, there is the matter of the phantom zone villains |
Neal: | I would say yes beyond the potential Superboy. |
Jeffrey: | Who I think he no longer executed |
Neal: | That too! Good call! I can't comment here, actually. |
Steve: | Where did they state that exactly? |
Neal: | They showed a picture of the Phantom Zone villains. They didn't say they'd done anything. |
Barry: | they didn't but it was alluded to in that picture in the last issue |
Jeffrey: | It wasn't stated, but it was on one of the glass shards in IC6, I think? The ones that mentioned Joe Chill and showed WW with the league |
Neal: | Actually, it was the Secret Files, I think |
Steve: | OK... Any more questions Neal? |
Neal: | But at any rate, the point being, they wouldn't arbitrarily show it. |
Jeffrey: | And since WW now helped found the league and Joe Chill was the Wayne's murderer and was caught, it stands to reason they're undoing that or something |
Neal: | Not for this issue! Thanks, guys! |
Steve: | Any last minute thoughts on IC guys? |
Jeffrey: | Next time we have a huge great story, can we have it NOT change continuity? :) 'cause that'd be swell |
Neal: | More werewolves and vampires! All right. Too much of an in-joke. |
Barry: | what does this do to Beppo? |
Jeffrey: | Oh Neal, you and your lycanthropes |
Steve: | Hey, and where's Krypto? |
Neal: | That's important. Superboy was watching him, right? |
Barry: | no superboy - looks like its time to live in the fortress again |
Steve: | Is it back to the Fortress for Krypto? |
Neal: | Now he's eaten the Kents and is moving on to Topeka |
Steve: | Yeah, oh well. |
Jeffrey: | Bad dog! |
Barry: | then again there is kara. they do need to learn to like one another, and at some point someone really should put kara in school |
Steve: | OK guys, Thanks for a great K Council chat. Until the next big event, that's all from us in regards to the comics. We'll be with your shortly to discuss the "Superman Returns" trailer. |
Jeffrey: | And give her a regular supporting cast! |
Barry: | well thanks everyone - another crisis averted - nite all |
Neal: | Night! |
Jeffrey: | Seeya! |
Kryptonian Council Meetings
- June 2005 - Is the Superman Homepage anti-Smallville?
- October 2005 - Infinite Crisis #1
- November 2005 - Infinite Crisis #2
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #3
- January 2006 - Infinite Crisis #4
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis #5
- March 2006 - Infinite Crisis: Secret Files & Origins 2006
- April 2006 - Infinite Crisis #6
- May 2006 - Infinite Crisis #7
- May 2006 - Superman Returns Theatrical Trailer
- May 2007 - Discussing 52