Superman Comic Books
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Part 2 - Norm Breyfogle Interview
I posed the very same questions to Norm Breyfogle, changed of course for experience and phrasing, but here are his responses.Norm's starts off with a reference to my email signature...I have a host of my favorite quotes from my favorite sources, and he commented about them, so I commented back. Here are the quotes/comments, and then the interview:
"Why do you say this to me when you know that I will kill you for it?" -Zod-
"And so it was that the poet, through an excess of theological refinement, was unable to satisfy his coarse carnal passion" -Baudolino, page 398-
"I shall rip out your intestines!" "Evil is as evil does. Make it quick. I have work to do"-Mongul/Luthor-
"I have laughed, in bitterness and agony of the heart, at the contrast between what I seem, and what I am." -Dimmesdale-
"Oh, everything I touch gets ruined!" -Charlie Brown-
"The reader is an afterthought, the placenta, an accident, and any writer who believes otherwise is a bigger fool than his following." -Bukowski-
"Goodbye, I said. Farewell, ye women. They laughed at me down at the cannery today, and it was the fault of ye, for ye hath poisoned my mind and made me helpless against the onslaught of life. Now ye are dead. Goodbye, and goodbye forever. He who maketh a sap of Arturo Bandini, be he man or woman, cometh to an untimely end. I have spoken. Amen." -John Fante-
Neal: Hey, Norm...thanks about the quotes. I've always been a big Buk/Fante fan, and Zod and Luthor, who could pass that up? :)
Norm: I like citing good quotes too, which is why I used so many on the inside back covers of my title Metaphysique.
Neal: Well... I went through a few drafts of questions, and I have a bunch here for you... I made three lists of rather similar questions on similar tiers with regards to the industry and DC in general... if any questions bug you, just tell me to shove it, or you'd rather not answer. I completely understand. I don't want to get anyone in trouble or anything, but if you want to, hey, no problem... ;)
Norm: Of course; we all have perfect freedom of choice in this country, right?
QUESTIONS:
Neal: First off, Norm, I'd like to thank you for doing this interview... now, to make with the questions...
Neal: How did you get your start with penciling?
Norm: I assume you mean professionally (I've been drawing since preschool). Anyone who cares can see the answer to this in the Bio section of my website: normbreyfogle.com. Since you've got a lot a questions here and I have limited time, I'll let that be my answer...
[Writer's Note: There's a great bio for Norm here on his site. I'd recommend checking it out if you wand a lot more information. It's one of the better artist's sites on the net. Here's a brief excerpt with Norm's permission, to give you an idea:]
Norm Breyfogle was born on February 27, 1960 in Iowa City, Iowa. From a very early age, Norm liked to draw. When he was 12 years old, he began taking private lessons from commercial artist Andrew Benson. Around this time, he also won his first award at a town and country art show. The Daily Mining Gazette, a newspaper in Houghton, Michigan, profiled Norm in 1976 as "Norm Breyfogle Near Master Cartoonist at 16". During his time in High School, he co-plotted, wrote, and illustrated a comic book called Tech-Team for Michigan Technological University.
After High School, Norm attended Northern Michigan University, studying art. During his time in college, Norm worked as an Illustrator for a magazine and also for a graphics company. In 1980, he illustrated a book entitled Bunyan: Lore's Loggin' Hero published by Book Concern. He finished his forth year with a 3.25 GPA.
Shortly after graduation in 1982, Norm moved to California. He went to work for a company as a draftsman, and later worked for United Space Boosters as a technical illustrator designing a training manual for the Space Shuttle program. This work helped him better understand how to draw technical objects in perspective, which he still uses today in his artwork.
In 1984, Mike Friedrich, President of Star Reach, a talent representative agency, saw Norm's work hanging at the San Diego Con Art Show and began a professional relationship with Norm that lasted until 2001. Norm also at this time pencilled a six page story for DC's New Talent Showcase, beginning a short run in the title. This was followed by several issues of American Flagg, penciling a back-up story called Bob Violence, in 1985. Norm also drew for Tales of Terror, a horror anthology for Eclipse during this time. Following that, and still breaking into the comic scene, Norm wrote, illustrated, and lettered a Captain America story in Marvel Fanfare in 1986. He then drew Whisper for First Comics in 1986-1987, his first monthly book, before landing a big series, Detective Comics.
Neal: How did you get started inking? Was it a natural progression from penciling, or is it a whole different medium, in your opinion? Or did inking come first?
Norm: I always inked my own work... until entering the world of professional comics where the tradition is to divide it up. I've been trained as a complete artist: I can express myself in many different media from pencil to ink to wash to full color paintings in water base or oil. I look at art images holistically, so to me it's always seemed a little unecessary, alien, and somewhat debilitating to not ink my own stuff.
Neal: Having seen the best of both of these worlds, which do you prefer, and why?
Norm: That question assumes that they ARE two different worlds, and I obviously balk at that attitude. But tossing my purist semantic bias aside, I suppose that if I had to choose between one or the other in my comics work for the rest of my career (I don't, thank God) I'd choose pencilling because that's the more essential and important of the two. The penciller is the first and foremost one in control of how the script is structured visually, while the inker is more or less a decorator. But don't get me wrong; a good inker is very important as well, as any lousy inker will instantly prove. I've found that the best inkers are usually also good drawers/artists in their own right.
Neal: How long did it take you to move from working on your own, practicing, to a steady gig, and what was your first steady gig in the business?
Norm: I started learning to draw in earnest at around 10 years of age and my first pro comics gig occured at 24. If you consider only the time that I actively looked for pro comics work I'd say it took about 3 - 5 years (I started sending samples to comics companies while in college and continued afterward for a couple years as a drafter and technical illustrator... until my first comics gig).
My first monthly job was Bob Violence. It was a short, regular backup in the title American Flagg, published by FirstComics. My entire list of comics work can be found on my website.
Neal: I first encountered your work when I was getting back into comics with Batman and Detective Comics... how did you land those books, and how did it feel to have the hero tied for DC flagship status at your disposal?
Norm: I let my agent at the time (Mike Friedrich of Star Reach, who no longer reps me) know that I wanted to do Batman. He was in constant contact with DC at that time, and when the opportunity arose, I took it.
I loved doing Batman, but I frankly wish I'd gotten the gig a few years later, after my skills had matured a little more. I look at a lot of that stuff now - especially my drawn faces - and wince.
But all things considered, that was a wonderfully dreamlike time in my life, and I'm grateful that DC gave me such a grand opportunity.
Here's a "prose portrait" that I wrote of Alan Grant that expresses some of my feelings about those times:
FRIENDLY FIRE
Once upon a Dark Knight, love for the self-actualized ideal wove our professional paths together. Before I owned a computer, we fax-debated everything under - and infinitely beyond - the sun, and loved it; our differences were mostly semantic preferences. Hurting each other was no motivation, we lusted only after truth and enjoyed the chase.
On a battleground I'd prefer his will and tenacity at my back. In Utopia his fusion of logic and love is the membership prerequisite! As a friend he's loyalty, humor, compassion, and good times personified; I envy those who grew up with him or live in his proximity. As a writer and storytelling partner he's my greatest old flame and has my highest respect; he's suffered for his forthrightness as all who express their principles do, but nothing diminishes his spirit.
Someday, maybe humankind will be perfected. If so, that gleam in Alan's eye must be the primordial spark of the coming superman.
Neal: Here's a theory I want to debunk or affirm... is getting into the comics business related to who you know, or talent... honestly? Not to say I'm undermining your talent, I mean, I and most who have seen your work hold you in high regard, it's just that many of us trying to get in sometimes feel like it's impossible, and it's interesting as to whether connections are a large part of the process or not. We read all kinds of things about how an artist falls out of favor with a certain group of people and gets axed, or talks to a guy at a convention and suddenly has a mainstay title... what is your vision of the truth or falsity of this?
Norm: I really don't have much more insight into this issue than you or any hopeful amateur out there might have. I could probably say more if I'd ever worked on staff at one of the companies (as an editor, or even in production), but being a freelancer who got his early breaks through an artist's rep (Mike Friedrich, of Star Reach), I don't have as much direct experience with office politics as others might. Indeed, I know that that lack of experience has hurt my ability to market myself and find comics gigs now that I'm representing myself and now that the "Big Two" (Marvel and DC) don't see me as the next "new, young, hot thing" anymore. I was kept so busy for almost my entire career and never had to actually look for work until recently.
Since Mike Friedrich had friends/connections at DC, I think it's safe to assume that connections are somewhat important. And that's not even that unreasonable! After all, no matter how good an artist's samples are, an editor can't tell if he's reliable unless he knows him personally or knows someone who can vouch for him. And reliablility is very important in the high-pressure deadline environment of comics.
Added to this is the fact that it appears to be generally harder to break into comics now than it was 18 years ago, for many reasons (all mainly stemming from the facts of comics being overshadowed by computer gaming and the capitalist machine discovering that big money can be made from plundering the idea farm that is comics).
Neal: Were there creative differences between you and your immediate superiors? If so, what did they involve?
Norm: Any such differences for me were mostly due to my wanting to ink my own work and the beurocratic wall that's been erected against that, for whatever reasons.
A very few editors have been unreasonable tyrants at one time or another, but then I've been an embarrassing primadonna, so it all evens out.
Neal: Were you ever blatantly censored, or did you have things rejected you didn't believe should have been?
Norm: Yes, a few times. Nothing too big, but always unreasonably, in my opinion. But since it was never anything very big I didn't argue.
One exception over which I did argue a bit, however, was the rejection of my inking my own pencils. It was and is a minor consternation to me. Even the very inkers assigned to ink my pencils admit that my inks were just as good as their. Mystifying. But not all companies are like that. Malibu Comics, First Comics, and my present publisher (Angel Gate Press) have all let me ink my own stuff. DC used to, also, in the early days of my relationship with them ... and even with the objectivity of time and hindsight I must say that those issues usually look the best.
Still, I have no ultimate problem with others inking my work; I just have a personal preference, that's all (and it's ultimately a matter of personal taste, anyway). I never make it a deal-breaker. And part of me even likes the novelty of seeing my work interpreted by new hands...
Neal: Here's a toughy, and I don't mean to be impetuous or rude by asking this, but what lead to you leaving Batman and Detective Comics? Was it a release, or on your own terms? And have you ever left on bad terms for something you didn't believe to be your own fault (like, did they ever stab you in the back anywhere? Got any scary stories?)?
Norm: I left DC because I had an offer (to draw Prime for Malibu Comics) that included the publishing of my creator-owned Metaphysique, which I wrote, pencilled, inked, and painted the covers for. Surely anyone can understand why I'd jump at that opportunity? DC seemed to bear me no ill will and I'm grateful to them for that.
No scary stories to speak of; I guess I've been lucky.
Neal: Many people, myself included, remember your run on Prime fondly... how did that run go for you, and how did you leave that book... I know it's detailed in the last issue of Prime you did, but how about in your own words, today, well after the fact?
Norm: Prime was wonderful; it was a heady time in comics and there was good money involved. Unfortunately that bubble burst half-way through my run on Metaphysique and I had to re-negotiate my contract and do the last 3 issues for free, which I did because I needed to finish the story for aesthetic closure's sake.
The saddest part of the end of the Ultraverse is that after Marvel bought all the characters they stopped publishing them. They still own the copyrights, of course, and I'd be happy to draw Prime again, but Marvel has rejected all proposals to revive those characters. Don't ask me why; I haven't a clue.
Neal: In your opinion, what's more important in the comics industry...story, or sales? I think I know the answer to that one, but I have to ask...
Norm: In the realm of "the industry" it's obviously sales, but in the realm of the noosphere of art quality it's obviously story and art. There's such a polarity at the heart of all things; it should be no surprise that it's at the heart of comics as well.
Neal: What's your take on the DC Universe today, as opposed to the Marvel Universe, even further, as opposed to the Independent and Image scene?
Norm: I don't see many comics, and what I do see is too varied for me to feel comfortable making blanket judgments about, but I will say that as usual there're common fads and trends contrasted against the rarer stuff of unique and individual quality. The trick for comics - for all pop culture, in fact - has always been to wed the popular culture's passing tastes with true and lasting quality. When that's done, we have magic! We need as many people as we can get who accept this goal of true quality as being more important than personal aggrandizement. In fact, the whole realm of human affairs in general needs as much of this noble spirit as it can get; the lack of it and the plenitude of it's opposite is the chief reason we're living in a relative hell of deception, force, and greed inadequately checked by ethics.
But I'm an idiotic idealist and always have been.
Neal: Who is your personal favorite artist/artists in the comics industry, and what does a man who makes comics read when he goes to the comic book store?
Norm: I only pick up comics rarely, just enough to keep abreast of the latest trends. When one works in an industry for awhile, one needs other outlets!
Most of my reading is of novels and non-fiction. I mostly pick up comics for the art.
Most of my favs have been my personal influences from the past: Neal Adams, Joe Kubert, Bernie Wrightson, Nick Cardy, Curt Swan and Murphy Anderson, Frank Miller, Jim Aparo, Bill Sienkiewicz, Frank Frazetta. (This a small list, of course.)
Neal: Before this interview in the article I'm writing using this interview as a basis for, we've met and spoken with Richard Caponetti, a young artist who, like me, is trying to get into the comic business. We find ourselves deeply frustrated at every turn. I've been led to understand that you believe his work publication worthy, but when the piece was put to DC, we'll leave just how to the realm of reader speculation to avoid potential libel, the piece was received rather poorly, and in fact not regarded for its content at all, because of the non-solicitation rule. Now I for one, and many, understand well the need to avoid a lawsuit as an organization, but what I have to ask your opinion of is whether or not such a policy, one that avoids new material and potential new talent in favor of safety, benefits the comic community or not. Fan response to the resurrected Epic line is still unknown to this interviewer, but perhaps you might have some insights into these difficulties, having more than likely been through them many times in your own diverse career?
Norm: I am as mystified as you are regarding this "no solicitation" policy. I can only guess as to it's purpose, and I don't even know what DC's publicly stated reason for it is, so keep that in mind.
Might it be simply to stem the tidal wave of submissions they regularly get?
I must admit that it's hard to see this as a good thing for the comics industry, but I think it may be a negative more as a symptom than as a cause. If you look at it statistically, it seems obvious that there's only a certain amount of comics buyers at any one time and that there might arise more creators than there are buyers able to the support printing and distributing of their work. So supply and demand is a big part of this. But does this mean that a lot of talent will therefore go unnoticed? Definitely, and in our modern age this may be more true than ever before because of the ubiquity - the commonness - of art. In past centuries art and entertainment appreciation was a relatively rare experience. With the invention of the printing press, suddenly many more millions could have the same level of aesthetic sophistication as did previously only the elite, with the inevitable increase in number of those who want to BE artists. Today, entertainment - and thus art - is so common that we may be reaching (or could conceivably reach someday) a saturation point where there are simply too many artists for the market! It seems at least logically possible to me.
And you know, the "starving artist" phenomenon is a cliche exactly because it's been so common throughout history. The only way around this predicament is for an artist to be as talented and productive as possible and look at all possible outlets for his or her support...
Richard Caponetti is a case in point. I've read some of his proposals and spoken with the man, and I'm very impressed with not only his ability as a writer (both his originality and his speed) but also with his depth of comics lore knowledge. I wish I had some sort of "in" pathway for this guy, but to editors I'm just another freelancer (and not one they consider any particular expert on writing to boot), so what can I do for him? It's also a lot harder to break into comics as a writer than as an artist, all other things being equal, because visual art quality can more easily be seen at a glance, while evaluating writing takes much more time (a component always in short supply in the deadline world of comics).
Neal: Now, new question...was that last question too long? :)
Norm: Er... I've got pressing deadlines, too.
[Writer's Note: At this point in the email response, this is where you, the writer, cringe. ;)]
Neal: All right, that was too easy. Here's a toughy, and feel free to decline. It's a tough question. Is there an artist working in comics whose work you abhor? For instance, I find several artists rather distressing to look at, simply because they're so out of place in the medium they've been offered. Or, if you don't want to point the finger, is there a style that is pervasive you're not fond of?
Norm: I'm personally a bit bored with the simplistic animation style that's a big trend right now. To me, comics are a unique medium of illustrated stories, and to try and compete with animation is to be doomed to failure. Cartoons move, but comics can carry much more detailed linear/illustrative styles.
I believe the present technology of digital coloring is partly responsible for this, at least when such coloring is used in such a saturated manner as to overshadow the art. And I can see why corporations would like such an effect as well, for at least 2 reasons: 1) It grabs the eye of the typically young comics consumer, and 2) it makes the penciller and inker a little less important, more interchangeable, and thus more easily manipulated economically.
Neal: How about a free plug, not because I'm up for giving out free ads, but because I want to hunt out what you're doing next... what does Norm Breyfogle have on the horizon with regards to projects?
Norm: I'm pencilling and inking Black Tide for Angel Gate Press, and will be doing more for them afterwards that I can't discuss yet. I have a project (written by Jean-Marc DeMatteis) waiting for a go-ahead at Dark Horse, and I still plan on someday getting back to finishing a novel that I began a couple years ago. Then there's my website, which is being re-designed and should be posted soon; it'll have all my 2000+ pages of available art scanned and posted, and many new items as well.
Sadly, I've just discovered that due to unforeseen difficulties, my new website's posting may be delayed for a while longer. But the original one is still there!
Neal: What is your dream project, even if it's already been done and you think you could do better? :)
Norm: My novel, which I'll also turn into a comic book one day... or a new version of Metaphysique... and frankly, any of the many comic icons I still haven't worked on regularly yet. At the top of that list would be: Superman, The Hulk, Daredevil, and Spiderman.
And Prime or Batman would be a real kick again, too!
Neal: What is your favorite piece that you've done?
Norm: Metaphysique, because I wrote as well as illustrated it and it all came from my heart.
Neal: What work do you like the least that you've done?
Norm: Don't know; I try not to think about that.
Neal: Okay, here's an open ended question that you can take advantage of in any way you want... what do you think of the industry in general? How can it be improved and where does it work?
Norm: I think I've already said all I want to about that in my answers above, but in addition - and to be rather obvious - I'd like to see comics become a booming industry again, so every talented creator can find work doing what they love to do.
Neal: All right...now for the lightning round.
Norm: Zap me, baby.
Neal: Favorite movie?
Norm: Spartacus. Vanilla Sky. Jesus Christ Superstar. The little Prince. And many more...
Neal: Favorite book?
Norm: The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are (by Alan Watts). Master of Time and Space (by Rudy Rucker). Valis (by Philip K. Dick). And many more...
Neal: Favorite musical group/music?
Norm: Classic rock, experimental jazz, 70's and 80's pop, and classical music.
Neal: Here's a question I always ask myself... if you had it to do all over again, what would you do... do you think you'd be an artist? I think I'd have been better off a plumber than a writer, but hey, sometimes you can't stop the muse, huh? What do you think?
Norm: I've already done it all over again .. and again and again and again. And I'm convinced that we're ALL artists; some of us are just more developed than others.
Neal: Do you know of any websites where people can display their work and potentially get noticed?
Norm: I know next to nothing of the internet. Sorry.
Neal: How do you get solicited by major comic companies? I know they gave a comic to a sitcom guy recently... that really burned me, trying my best to get in, and this guy writes comedy so they give him a 64 page special... name selling... what do you think of that?
Norm: It's an inevitability in an economy kept at a breakneck competitive pace of cut-throat ruthlessness by our shadow-masters. But what're ya gonna do, huh?
Neal: All right... that's all I have in terms of general questions, so I'll leave you the rest of the space to say anything you think important that I might have neglected... feel free to talk about anything... we want to hear what you have to say, and I for one am interested in what you might say that I have missed in my many inane questions, which I will now thank you for answering finally while ceding the floor... take care, Norm, and keep in touch.
[Writer's Note: Follow the link below to see Norm's response.]
Neal: I have to explain that.
I hate censorship of any form, as do most people, but as a responsibility, I also have to know and explain to mothers whose children look for Superman and find things THEY, not I find offensive why their children read X or Y. I resent it, personally. But Steve, the webmaster and I determined that there was no way we would keep anything Norm said under wraps, so please, please, follow the link, but if you're easily offended, log the heck off and don't read it. We figured it'd be like a spoiler warning for the ultra-sensitive. By some, not I, but some, what Norm says is considerably artistically risky. Meaning the man wrote something that takes risks, goes beyond boundaries, and is generally brave. People are afraid of this. So go read, if you dare.
I resent that our society is so closed that we have to do this. Especially given the irony that what Norm is espousing in the link is exactly what this link proves abhorrent.
We can only do our best to change these things.
Visit the link then come back here... We'll wait for you...
Neal: Now that you're back...
That was FANTASTIC, wasn't it?
I am extremely in debted to Norm for such a fine interview and a wonderful opportunity. I hope he talks to us regularly.
Click here to continue on to Part 3 of our "Welcome to the Comic Book Work Force" article, to read the interview with Tom Nguyen on his thoughts on breaking into the comic book industry.