Kryptonian Council

Kryptonian Council

The Staff of the Superman Homepage Speak Out

[Date: May 2007]

Hey, folks! Welcome to the Kryptonian Council! This is a free-form discussion where I and members of the Superman Homepage writing team will be talking freely about issues that affect the site and Superman in general. It's a little like Radio KAL, only it's more free-form. You'll find typos, off the cuff remarks. It's the website at its rawest, and it's supposed to be that way. Everything with a grain of salt, and humor, all the while confronting the issues of concern to a Superman fan. It's a way to extend the idea behind Radio KAL to multiple people, without having a bunch of people talking over each other, and we hope to make it a regular fixture here at the Superman Homepage, or at least a fixture for every time something major happens in the Superman world.

This time around we take a look at the weekly comic book series "52". If you have suggestions for future topics, please send them in to either Steve Younis or Neal Bailey. Enjoy!



Steve: Welcome to a Superman Homepage "Kryptonian Council" meeting to discuss the weekly series "52".
Steve: Joining me are Neal Bailey, Michael Bailey (no relation), and Jeffrey Bridges. We hope to be joined by Barry Freiman and Jason Larouche who are both running a little late. Welcome guys!
Neal: Hey, Homepage!
Michael: Greetings, everyone.
Jeffrey: I am thinking of changing my name to Jeffrey Bridges Bailey
Steve: Neal and Michael, you both reviewed issues from the series, while Jeffrey and I are here as observers of the series. Neal, did you want to kick off the discussion?
Neal: Sure. We should probably start with the obvious. Overall, you guys think the series was a success?
Jeffrey: A success for what they set out to do? No. A success in terms of being a highly enjoyable and well-written series? Yes. It just depends on how you want to quantify that.
Steve: Monetarily I think it was... I mean it sold well for DC Comics, and everyone seemed to be buying it and reading it. And it came out weekly on schedule. So yeah, I guess it succeeded in that regard
Michael: Well given that only two of the stories ended badly I think that it was successful in giving the spotlight to some of the second and third tier characters.
Neal: I think people were expecting an event with a beginning, middle, and end, as opposed to a number of character vignettes that were interrelated
Neal: I believe that as a character study and a story with a clear arc, it was a total success. As your average comic event, like Our Worlds At War, it failed. But then, honestly, I prefer it. Did you guys?
Michael: I liked the way they did it. It meant that there were certain weeks where I wasn't digging on the book, but overall it was a very epic story.
Steve: I was hoping to read about what Clark, Bruce and Diana were doing in the year without Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman... but instead I got something else entirely. But it was still enjoyable... it opened up the DCU more to me
Jeffrey: Oh absolutely, I enjoyed the heck out of it and it made me care about characters I didn't or otherwise knew nothing about. But it didn't fill in the OYL gap at all.
Michael: Well, it did somewhat, just not entirely.
Neal: World War 3 was supposed to do that, and I think it paid lip service and failed. But that's not the fault of 52, I would say. 52 is just a good story.
Michael: World War 3 was definitely the most disappointing part of the series. All that build up with very little to show for it.
Neal: Which storylines failed for you, or succeeded? I was fond of Question, Buddy Baker (despite abhorring the space saga), Booster, Black Adam, and the Dibnys.
Jeffrey: Yes, and even the bix climactic fight with Black Adam led to... nothing. He's just disappeared.
Jeffrey: I was all about Black Adam and John Henry/Natasha
Neal: Lobo's return never really paid out for me, or the space sage, or the cult of Conner. I also didn't get what the thing was with Batman, per ce.
Jeffrey: Buddy Baker also really grew on me
Steve: The space saga didn't work for me either...
Neal: John Henry and Natasha, yes, VERY strong. Particularly the fight with Luthor
Michael: Black Adam was my favorite part of that series and the ending just depressed me. Liked the resetting of the name, but the whole thing was just kind of ... I hate to say it... lame.
Steve: Good to see John Henry back in the limelight
Neal: I was afraid they were going to disavow character like Steel and Conner with the Supes Ret-con in the wake of Infinite Crisis, and I'm glad I was wrong.
Jason: sorry i'm late guys
Jeffrey: I didn't get why Lobo would suddenly kill his space dophin god that he'd renounced violence for, but then I never could have seen him renouncing violence for religion anyway
Steve: Welcome Jason
Michael: But as you all said John Henry is a mover and shaker again. I thought for sure they were going to kill him again.
Jeffrey: I am quite happy John Henry is back in action. He's one of the best and most underutilized Supes supporting characters.
Neal: How about the key topic of the last issue, but mostly irrelevant to the rest of the series: The Megaverse, or Multiverse. Are you glad it returned? Do you think it's the same song with a new context? General opinions?
Steve: I don't like having a Multiverse... I think it just opens up a can of worms.
Jeffrey: I think we were fine without it, but I think there's also potential for a lot of good stories that way and the ability for people to read stories about characters they love that are long gone, so it's give and take.
Michael: I am a huge fan of the Multiverse, so right away I was going to like it. On more objective level I think the way they re-introduced it was a bit forced right at the end, but still it's a great concept.
Michael: I don't know if it will serve the same function as it did back in the day, but still, good to have it back.
Jeffrey: Although it was kind of convenient that Mr. Mind (?!!!) left the alternate earths in a state so similar to what everyone already knew...
Jason: well in my opinion the multiverse promotes so much room for original stories that don't have to worry about continuity
Neal: It seems to me that the Silver Age is just officially back. It's hitting me like a freight train. I'm angry, confused, I feel like there was little justification for it.
Neal: I LOVE those stories from those universes, but I'm confused as to why there was a huge reboot. It really impacted Supes in particular
Jeffrey: Yes, I was just going to ask that.
Jason: but getting back to Lobo, I wonder exactly what HE'LL do with the eye
Jason: i mean after he slaughters the head fishy
Neal: There seems to be a palpable, concerted effort to make Superman non-linear again, and other characters
Steve: As a continuity guy, I just think it's gonna make it difficult for new readers to jump in and understand what's going on if there are all these alternate versions of the same characters
Jeffrey: If the initial Crisis was to get rid of the multiverse, why bring it back again? Why get rid of it in the first place?
Neal: The paradox of continuity: If you delete it to streamline it, you just make people ask more questions about the stuff that came before and why it's gone.
Jason: probably because there are writers who feel hindered by contiuity
Jeffrey: As an aside, I did like them throwing in the Wildstorm universe as an alternate earth
Steve: Jeffrey, I guess because the guys writing for DC now are Silver Age fans
Jeffrey: That's probably the best explanation for it, Steve
Michael: Well, the comics industry works in cycles. Back in 1985 the powers that be didn't like it, so they got rid of it. The new guard likes it, so it's back.
Neal: I've heard that, the hindering argument. It didn't stop the Earth-3 villains from returning. All the writer has to do is put it into the current universe with talent and hard work]
Jeffrey: But I don't know if that's enough justification for doing it, were I one of those writers
Neal: For me, when you do something like this, there should be a clear reason. And that reason should be explained to the readers
Steve: The reason is, they like it, they want it.
Jason: maybe they're setting the mutliverse up to be torn down at the end of Countdown
Jeffrey: Yeah, we know there are multiple earths again, but I don't know why there should be. How is this, for example, going to make Superman better?
Jeffrey: We already have outside-continuty Superman stories with All-Star, so what did bringing the multiverse back do that wasn't already possible?
Neal: BUT, that, alas, is not the topic of 52, per ce, just a consequence. Here's another question: Did you find any errors between 52 and the One Year Later? Was OYL enhanced by 52 (even if it succeeded or failed)
Steve: I don't think it'll impact on Superman as much as it will other heroes... like the Marvel family
Jason: well Superman is redefinied for every generation. this will allow readers a chance to get exposed to multiple versions
Jason: oh yeah that's one complaint i had for 52. no superman origin
Michael: I think that One Year Later failed not because of the mistakes, but because the pay offs were terrible.
Neal: Yeah! Come to think of it
Jeffrey: Multiple versions at the expense of a defining one? My son will have five Supermen to choose between?
Neal: (That "yeah" was about the Superman origin.)
Jason: yeah. the crystal motif of the fortress was publicity for the movie
Neal: Actually, he'll have 51, if I'm not incorrect. Minus a few for, say, the Uncle Sam universes
Jason: okay what about World War III?
Jeffrey: Well the two Supergirls seems to be something of an anomaly, unless I interpreted that wrong and/or they're going to do something with that in the Supergirl book coming up where there's... two Kara's again
Steve: Supergirl defending Metropolis while Superman was away didn't really happen between 52 and OYL did it?
Neal: What confuses me, does the Earth-2 that the old universe knows still exist? Are there two Ultraman Earths? Etcetera.
Jeffrey: Sure didn't seem to
Michael: Wow, didn't really think of that, Steve.
Michael: I guess not.
Neal: Yeah, that was a contradiction that stood out to me, too, Steve.
Jason: let's get some thoughts on the World War event between 52
Jason: the Black Adam storyline in particular
Jeffrey: And how she went from that to what they've been presenting in her own title is a transition I'd like to understand. Badly.
Michael: World War III was so rushed. God, I wanted to like it so much, but the final result was just muddled.
Neal: 52 handled the whole subject of Black Adam better than all four issues, which leaves it about the stock events that occured, which were also one page and critically underscored by arbitrary execution.
Steve: I think the one issue of 52 that showed WW3 was actually a better version of events than the 4 WW3 issues
Jeffrey: Honestly WWIII felt like it was more about Martian Manhunter than anything else
Jason: true.
Michael: Well, DC had to justify his new outlook somehow.
Michael: I don't think they did a good job of it, but they had to do it.
Jeffrey: Yeah, but that's exactly what it felt like they were doing
Jeffrey: it didn't feel organic at all
Jason: but I noted this in my review; the bloodshed and slaughter caused by Black Adam was good but given that it was published at the time of the Virginia Tech massacre, it was hard to stomach
Michael: There was very little of World War III that felt organic.
Jeffrey: "Oh, we have to explain this, so here we go..." Like the Aquaman/Sub Diego thing.
Jason: it was like they used the opportunity to eliminate characters who'd lost siginificance in the DC-verse
Jeffrey: Well DC can't help unfortunate timing. The same sort of happened back with Imperiex.
Jeffrey: (same sort of thing, I mean)
Michael: That's interesting, because I didn't connect Virginia Tech and WWIII at all.
Jason: though it seems ironic; J'onn tries to stop a man who's lost touch with reality while losing touch himself
Neal: Personally I see no connection whatsoever between Virginia tech and this series.
Jeffrey: I don't think it's as much ironic as that's the actual story. How often do we try to help others with problems we have ourselves, and in the process help ourselves?
Jason: the idea of innocent young lives lost
Jason: well how did J'onn help himself?
Michael: J'onn has been through so much that I find it hard to believe that seeing into Black Adam's mind and seeing what bad people humans are would faze him.
Jason: by purging himself of connections to this world, including his appearance?
Michael: I mean JUSTICE LEAGUE did the same thing and the character came out stronger.
Neal: True, yeah, but one's a school shooting, the other's a comic book character invading nations. Some 3,000 people died in July in Iraq last year, but we don't connect that to Civil War in Marvel...it's personal, I understand.
Neal: BUT! Next question:
Neal: Countdown is up next. What do you guys expect or hope to see in that series. Do you think it will be similar? What's the countdown toward. Are they cashing in?
Neal: Do you think it will succeed?
Steve: Definitely cashing in. If 52 didn't succeed in that regard they wouldn't be doing "Countdown".
Jeffrey: I'd like to see better planning from the start so that it all ties together a little better and, as we've been saying, organically, while keeping the same strong focus on character.
Steve: Not sure what to expect though. Glad that Jimmy looks to be heavily involved
Jeffrey: Honestly I don't care if they're cashing in. If it's a good story, the reason they decided to tell the story doesn't bother me. If it's a bad story, though, watch out. :)
Neal: I'm interested to see a weekly with Superman in it, but honestly, I trusted the four creators on the last one. Dini hasn't really impressed me with his comics work (cartoons definitely) yet.
Michael: I think there is a great potential for failure, even more so than with 52. It seems that the point of COUNTDOWN is to keep on with the ever escalating mystery just to keep us coming back. It feels like DC is cashing in on 52.
Neal: They just did a countdown, right? That's what gets me
Jeffrey: Yeah, they could have picked a different name, I suppose
Steve: I think Dini will do better with this... being that it's more like a weekly TV series than a monthly comic book
Jason: i'm interested in the Jimmy Olsen connection
Neal: They did a Crisis, they set this big universe, this is obviously leading up to another event when the last one hasn't been properly reconciled.
Jason: exactly what relevance can Superman's Pal have to the Joker?
Michael: Well, what if the Joker kills Jimmy?
Jason: is that Wizard cover of Jimmy dead by Joker gas going to happen? Is that what Superman is crying about on that ad?
Jeffrey: I don't think Jimmy is going anywhere permanently, but it'll hopefully be a fun story along the way.
Michael: I mean it's only fair considering how they keep sticking Luthor in Batman stories.
Neal: Here's a question. If you had all of the comics in 52 stolen from you, meaning, now that you know the story, would you buy them again?
Jason: and what's up with the Red Robin (Dick Grayson) appearance in that poster?
Michael: I would buy the trades.
Jason: me too.
Steve: Probably not
Jason: trust me Ebay eats away your money
Michael: That's not Dick Grayson.
Jeffrey: If I had the money, yes. As I don't, no.
Jason: how do u know?
Jason: it WAS Dick in Kingdom Come
Michael: Because Dan DiDio let that slip in New York. That's Jason Todd.
Jason: and what's with the Medieval Look for Batman?
Jason: is that Damian?
Neal: Any theories as to what the countdown leads to? I have an idea
Jason: I think Adam figures out his magic word
Jason: whatever it is
Jeffrey: Well the promos have teased Darkseid, I'm sure he's involved somehow
Neal: I'm hoping it ends the multiverse Earth by Earth and leads to the current continuity turning into its own "Earth 2", where our Superman, Byrne, can age into Kingdom Come, and a new continuity (the one we're now reading) is birthed.
Michael: The Countdown is probably a McGuffin.
Jeffrey: Frankly the propect of a big Darkseid-centered event at the end of Countdown makes me giddy
Neal: That's my hope. I doubt it'll happen.
Jeffrey: Almost everything is a MacGuffin, though. The key is how well it's woven in and hidden so that you don't notice that's what it is.
Neal: Well, you've gotta know it's going to involve the Anti-Life equation. I mean, that seems a given.
Michael: Oh yes.
Jason: true
Michael: It almost has to.
Jeffrey: Maybe Jimmy's got it ;)
Michael: And Mary Marvel.
Jason: I'll more be interested in seeing what role Clark will play in all of this
Neal: I'm guessing that each issue, an Earth will die. Or at least that's what the title is referring to. Countdown to the New Earth, the final countinuity?
Michael: I think they put too much time into the Megaverse.
Michael: I wouldn't mind that, but I don't think it will happen.
Jason: and hey i noticed that in 52 the writers made the link between 52 and SUPERMAN: BIRTHRIGHT when Lex was trying to get away but Clark said he's known Lex since they were kids and knows when he's been conned
Neal: Well, guys, we're out or time and Space, much like Buddy and crew. Any final thoughts before Mr. Mind pwns us?
Jeffrey: I don't know if they'd go through all of this trouble to reintroduce the multiverse just to get rid of it again a year later
Steve: I'm right there for "Countdown" as long as Superman is heavily involved this time around. Bring it on
Michael: What a great series. Not always great, but overall very satisfying. It could have gone horribly, horribly wrong, but it didn't. Overall I give it a nine.
Jason: well who's to say ?
Jeffrey: Mr. Mind was the lamest reveal in a long time. A giant space bug who eats time! Oh come on. :P
Michael: Was that a Superman Returns reference, Steve?
Steve: ;)
Neal: Likewise. I don't know if I'd pay 100 bucks plus again, but I don't regret that I have.
Jason: lol
Steve: Well guys, thanks for being part of another Kryptonian Council meeting
Neal: It beats Lexxor.
Steve: Maybe we'll convene again at the end of Countdown... heh
Jason: wait that's it, Steve?
Michael: My pleasure. Always great to talk to you guys.
Jeffrey: Can we get our own Countdown to the Kryptonian Council about Countdown? :)
Jason: it's only been forty minutes
Steve: That's it Jason. Next time turn up on time :)
Neal: I will wait on Earth 43 - Lexxor
Jason: aight. fine. glad to meet and greet.
Steve: Thanks again guys! Bye
Jason: thanks for the invite and we'll reconvene soon i hope
Jason: later guys
Jeffrey: Always a pleasure
Jason: up up and away and all that

Kryptonian Council Meetings