Hey, folks! Welcome to the Kryptonian Council! This is a free-form discussion where I and members of the Superman Homepage writing team will be talking freely about issues that affect the site and Superman in general. It's a little like Radio KAL, only it's more free-form. You'll find typos, off the cuff remarks. It's the website at its rawest, and it's supposed to be that way. Everything with a grain of salt, and humor, all the while confronting the issues of concern to a Superman fan. It's a way to extend the idea behind Radio KAL to multiple people, without having a bunch of people talking over each other, and we hope to make it a regular fixture here at the Superman Homepage, or at least a fixture for every time something major happens in the Superman world.
This time around we take a look at the 4th issue of the huge DC Universe event "Infinite Crisis". If you have suggestions for future topics, please send them in to either Steve Younis or Neal Bailey. Enjoy!
| Steve: |
Welcome to the Kryptonian Council. We've gathered together again to discuss the latest issue of Infinite Crisis... issue #4. |
| Steve: |
I know Nick and Neal loved it... what about Barry and Jeffrey? |
| Steve: |
Oh... and quick intros everyone please |
| Jeffrey: |
I thought it was fantastic |
| Neal: |
I love Barry and Jeffrey too. Oh! |
| Jeffrey: |
Oh Neal! |
| Neal: |
Heh |
| Barry: |
I think if we begin with the cover by Lee with the 2 Superboys and Krypto it started off on just the right note from me |
| Barry: |
by the way I'm Barry |
| Nick: |
I'm Nick |
| Jeffrey: |
And I'm Jeffrey "still not the actor" Bridges |
| Neal: |
I'm Neal "Charles Bukowski" Bailey |
| Steve: |
I thought from page 1, with the Chemo "bombing" the issue started out with a real bang |
| Nick: |
I agree |
| Barry: |
Can I get my pet peeves out of the way right off the bat |
| Neal: |
Yeah, pretty crazy. I mean, I didn't realize until right in there it was like a nuclear attack |
| Jeffrey: |
I gotta say, I was a bit baffled in the beginning. I mean, the Brotherhood of Evil? We're talking quite obscure here. |
| Jeffrey: |
A lot of people I talked to had no idea who they were, and these were bona fide comic fans. |
| Barry: |
Neal you've covered this issue before but I was struck by a number of grammatical and color errors in this issue |
| Barry: |
To me in a book that has been being prepped for 2 years that is just laziness by the editor |
| Neal: |
Yeah...I saw that too but didn't raise a stink this time....the color, less the grammar. Got any specific places? |
| Neal: |
(Not calling you to task, just interested) |
| Barry: |
the color issue -- Krypto's dog collar |
| Nick: |
i've definitely seen the color errors |
| Barry: |
it's yellow, then it's black, then it's red |
| Nick: |
breach (I believe) disappearing from the tower, etc |
| Neal: |
Interesting...I didn't see those, but I see them now. |
| Barry: |
i can forgive errors in virtually any title - things do creep in - but not in an event title that you know had to have been reviewed / read by almost everyone on DC staff before it went to press |
| Steve: |
Can someone explain what the kiss that Alex gave Power Girl achieved? |
| Neal: |
Agreed. You know, I find I make more errors like that the more I edit something. Might just be a little extra editing. The explaination of Alexi's machinations...the monologue. What did you guys think of that? |
| Neal: |
I think it was just to knock her out. Poor Black Adam |
| Nick: |
poor J'onn |
| Neal: |
Or lucky Black Adam, depending on your perspective |
| Steve: |
Neal is there a reason you keep calling him Alexi? |
| Barry: |
Alex Luthor obviously acquired the Superman II super kiss power |
| Neal: |
Nope. Just messed up the name |
| Nick: |
I loved the monologue, finally tied everything together |
| Neal: |
But I get my coloration right! :) |
| Jeffrey: |
Going back to Neal's question, as much as I dislike long villain monologues, this one was very nice as a reader, because it tied everything together |
| Neal: |
Yeah, it was odd. Usually monologues wear on me, but this one really worked well |
| Jeffrey: |
Maybe that's because there was an actual point to this one |
| Neal: |
Yeah |
| Barry: |
But this was more than a monologue -- this was a page that put every one of those countdown minis into the big picture of the Crisis |
| Nick: |
and about time in my opinion |
| Neal: |
Yep. And strikingly, they ALL made sense. That really, really surprised me |
| Neal: |
I though Rann and Day of Judgement couldn't possibly relate |
| Nick: |
so did I, especially Rann |
| Barry: |
The Superboy and Alex sneaking out of Limbo while Superman-2 and Lois-2 don't notice was certainly a bit of a stretch of credulity |
| Steve: |
Yeah, how big is the "heaven" place |
| Nick: |
see i was actually fine with that |
| Neal: |
I was okay with it too. I can see how it'd pull people around, though. My big question is less how they got out, and more, since they know Earth 2 Superman will be a problem, and since Superboy is young and just as strong, why not |
| Neal: |
just take Supes out? |
| Nick: |
Alex created the world, I don't see any reason why he couldn't leave it |
| Jeffrey: |
Maybe they need him for something |
| Jeffrey: |
Maybe they were hoping he'd convince Bats and make things easy on them? |
| Neal: |
What do you think he meant by Earth 2 only being the beginning? Multiple Earths, or you think he wants to play God and just make one perfect universe? |
| Jeffrey: |
I think it's the latter |
| Neal: |
I see this ending with Earth 1 and Earth 2 still in play. |
| Steve: |
Maybe by creating Earth-2 he makes Lois well again and then Kal-L will be thankful and perhaps forgive him for what he's done |
| Jeffrey: |
Which is probably what will cause everyone to turn on him and all the heroes fight together to defeat him |
| Jeffrey: |
And I agree, I think Earth-2 might be sticking around after all this |
| Barry: |
Well Alex isn't from E-1 or E-2, and Superboy too so putting E-2 back on the map doesn't come close to fulfilling their desires |
| Neal: |
I'm guessing he plans to do much more, but will get stopped after Earth 2 |
| Neal: |
And heck, technically, Earth 3 re-created itself, right? |
| Nick: |
i don't even think earth 2 will stick around, but ive been wrong before |
| Nick: |
yeah...don't even try to explain that |
| Neal: |
Maybe it won't...maybe more some characters will stay over |
| Barry: |
Well with the Crime Syndicate still in action, yes Neal it did |
| Steve: |
What of the Batman/Nightwing chat... any relevance that I didn't pick up on? |
| Nick: |
other than poor Dick is probably gonna end up a corpse? |
| Nick: |
and just the return to a confident, non-psycho Batman |
| Neal: |
Well, I didn't see the "BIG CONFRONTATION" the previews offered. But I did find it really touching. The "The early days were the best" thing hints at something, but my best guess is that |
| Neal: |
Nightwing and Batman will be working together more |
| Barry: |
Batman actually sought out Nightwing to see if he was all right and to help - this is the return of a Batman who actually gives a **** about the people who work with him |
| Neal: |
I think Nightwing will live |
| Nick: |
i hope so |
| Barry: |
On a related note |
| Barry: |
in the most recent issue of Birds of Prey, Batman actually compliments the Birds and specifically the Huntress - there is a turning point in his "my town my rules" bitter old man thing |
| Neal: |
He did it all for the nookie. |
| Neal: |
Even if I were Batman, to get a Huntress kiss? Oy |
| Steve: |
And the meat of this issue... the Superboy fight |
| Steve: |
WOW! |
| Nick: |
or as i like to call it...fanboy crack |
| Neal: |
Yeah...at first, it seemed like it might be an arbitrary thing...but then, as it got going...WOW |
| Jeffrey: |
What I don't understand is if he can move planets around, how did *anyone* survive the fight with him? |
| Nick: |
when I saw that Titans signal device... |
| Nick: |
he was pulling his punches, he didn't want to kill anyone |
| Neal: |
Did it divert from the story? I would have said yes, had it just ended with a victor. Instead, it removed him from the storyline, essentially, and brought Flash into the equation |
| Neal: |
I don't think he wanted to kill, Jeff. I think he just wanted to rough Superboy up, but, having not fought for so long, he just started accidentally taking heads off. :) |
| Jeffrey: |
I don't know about that, it sure seemed like he wanted to kill Connor. |
| Steve: |
So what happened there with the speed force? Did pre-Crisis Flash characters pull in Superboy into the non-existant pre-Crisis past or something else? |
| Nick: |
that's part of the reason I really liked Superboy Prime here, I really felt bad for the guy, he's just out of control |
| Barry: |
what worked about it for me was Conner took ownership of the Superboy name with this fight - he isn't the replacement guy anymore, he's the real deal - the minute superboy prime struck the dog, my allegiance to him died |
| Jeffrey: |
Good point on Connor, there |
| Nick: |
nobody hits krypto |
| Neal: |
That I didn't understand. I like the development of losing the speed force, but I don't understand why going into it would destroy it...otherwise Barry would have destroyed it in the original Crisis. |
| Neal: |
Yeah, that was harsh |
| Neal: |
You know...I lost pity for Superboy of Earth Prime, after he killed on accident, he didn't run, he kept killing. That says villain to the core to me |
| Barry: |
I found it more of that scientific mumbo jumbo that pollutes the Flash world and maybe getting rid of the Speed Force is the first step in getting rid of all that stuff that tends to slow Flash stories down |
| Neal: |
Sounds plausible |
| Nick: |
it will be interesting to see what happens to flash come july |
| Steve: |
So Flash and his family vanished? |
| Barry: |
and Kid Flash too - only Jay escaped |
| Barry: |
but then got shunted to E-2 |
| Nick: |
i have my crazy theory about where everybody went |
| Steve: |
And Superboy Prime vanished with them to places unknown |
| Nick: |
I think a jump to the future is likely |
| Nick: |
all setting up SuperBOY to join the Legion |
| Neal: |
I think they'll be back, actually. Judging from the Superboy action figure with the Anti-Monitor style gear in the solicits |
| Nick: |
its not going to happen, but a guy can hope |
| Barry: |
agreed Neal - |
| Nick: |
yeah, DC really blew it when they released that |
| Neal: |
I'm guessing Flash and Kid Flash, or one of the two, will return by the end of the series. I think Kid Flash will become Flash |
| Steve: |
So we have a new Blue Beetle and a new Spectre |
| Barry: |
remember what superboy prime's very first job for alex was when he broke out of limbo |
| Barry: |
retrieving the antimonitor's corpse |
| Neal: |
YEAH! Crispus Allen as Spectre! AWESOME! |
| Nick: |
new Blue Beetle: still unsure on the concept, the new Spectre is fantastic though |
| Neal: |
SO cool! |
| Nick: |
agreed Neal |
| Nick: |
and such a fantastic merge scene too |
| Steve: |
That chest stitching opening up looked painful |
| Jeffrey: |
It's okay, Steve, he didn't feel it. ;) |
| Neal: |
Yeah. I didn't see that coming at ALL. I loved that character...to see him die hurt...I really didn't expect him to come back. And that he rated space in this series just shows they're taking it seriously. |
| Steve: |
I felt it for him... :P |
| Neal: |
I'll bet the embalming hurt more. :) |
| Neal: |
But then, I wouldn't know |
| Barry: |
i felt for him - i just read the gotham central issue tonite that ties into all that and it's just a great flip of the jim corrigan story |
| Neal: |
How about that ending? |
| Neal: |
Earth-2, back again |
| Neal: |
JSA gone |
| Neal: |
And big Luthor hands coming out of that hole |
| Barry: |
it's great to give people what they want and then say but we'll give it to u in a "be careful what u wish for" kinda way |
| Jeffrey: |
I didn't even notice those hands |
| Jeffrey: |
Too much going on in that panel! :) |
| Steve: |
For those not fully in the know... what's the story with Psycho Pirate |
| Neal: |
Oh yeah. He went Godzilla |
| Barry: |
After the first Crisis he was the only villain - originally an earth2 villain - who remembered the multiverse |
| Steve: |
What's his power? |
| Barry: |
his medusa mask enables him to control other's emotions |
| Steve: |
So he scared Black Adam into saying SHAZAM? |
| Barry: |
yup you got it |
| Steve: |
And Black Adam has the power to call down the lightning using that word too? |
| Neal: |
If I were the Psycho Pirate, I'd make the "reconsider" face when Alex said he wasn't giving him Power Girl. But that's just me |
| Barry: |
Black adam, mary and cap all change with "Shazam" |
| Barry: |
Junior changes by saying "captain marvel" |
| Nick: |
for those that don't know, the Pirate played a major role in the original Crisis, serving as the lackey of the Anti-Monitor |
| Neal: |
The Anti-Monitor needed fear, as I recall, right? |
| Jeffrey: |
Was there ever an explanation given for why he remembered and no one else did? |
| Nick: |
and he pacified the planets too |
| Barry: |
he wasn't on Earth when the changes were made |
| Nick: |
he was outside of the Crisis i think is the best explanation, off with anti-monitor |
| Barry: |
he was still in the antimonitor's lair |
| Steve: |
So we currently have 2 earths... DCU and Earth-2? |
| Nick: |
yup |
| Neal: |
Yep. I'm surprised Harbinger and Pariah haven't come into play yet |
| Nick: |
but it looks like theres no one else on Earth-2, just the heroes that got shifted there |
| Nick: |
they're both dead Neal |
| Steve: |
Although any characters who were originally Earth-2 characters have been removed from DCU Earth and returns to Earth-2? |
| Barry: |
Flamebird disappeared - does that mean she got shunted to Earth 2 and turned back into Bat-Girl? |
| Nick: |
Harbinger in Superman/Batman, Pariah in Villains United |
| Neal: |
I think there will be a new Harbinger, and I don't think Pariah CAN die...editorial line to the contrary... |
| Barry: |
I think i know who the new Harbinger is going to be |
| Nick: |
probably, there's been a lot of talk about who moved Earths and who didn't |
| Nick: |
do tell Barry |
| Barry: |
Donna Troy |
| Nick: |
hmm |
| Nick: |
it would work |
| Neal: |
I agree...sounds pretty plausible |
| Jeffrey: |
That seems the logical choice |
| Steve: |
Any final thoughts? |
| Nick: |
if we're done with Crisis, we could spend a minute on the new Superman creative team |
| Jeffrey: |
Donna seems to be missing from all the space scenes in IC4. I just went back and looked, and I don't see here in there anywhere. Curious. |
| Neal: |
I don't want this series to end. I wish all comics were like this. And if they don't keep making comics like this, there will be a hole in my heart. No pressure, Geoff |
| Nick: |
me neither Neal, I can't remember the last time I enjoyed a comic this much |
| Steve: |
Quick thoughts on the new Superman creative teams and then we really need to wrap this up... |
| Neal: |
I can. The Death of Superman, which was what got me back into comics as a kid |
| Neal: |
What are they again? |
| Nick: |
for those that haven't heard, Kurt Busiek and Carlos Pacheco are taking over the book after the OYL arc |
| Neal: |
Curioser |
| Nick: |
I'm excited, even if Kurt's JLA arc wasn't fantastic |
| Barry: |
Busiek did a really disappointing JLA story a few months ago involving the Crime Syndicate - I'm ambivalent at this point because of that |
| Jeffrey: |
That was a terrible arc |
| Nick: |
you and I think alike Barry |
| Neal: |
Yeah...that story was a textbook argument AGAINST decompression, and I'm usually the first one to argue FOR it |
| Neal: |
I was like "This story is STILL going?" |
| Nick: |
not me, I hate decompression |
| Barry: |
What made that even more confusing was the inclusion in that storyline of the "egg" from jla versus avengers - i was sure this would tie into IC at some point - and maybe it will |
| Nick: |
i sure hope not |
| Neal: |
It depends with me, on if it's geared toward the trade, or, like, say, how Ruin was decompressed |
| Neal: |
For Tomorrow? Awful example of decompression, arbitrary at that |
| Neal: |
Infinite Crisis? Probably the best argument for decompression yet |
| Steve: |
Just to recap, Geoff Johns and Kurt Busiek's four-month, eight-part story arc will run through Action Comics #837-840 and the reconfigured Superman #650-653 |
| Neal: |
Without years of setup, IC wouldn't be this powerful |
| Barry: |
I'm more anxious to see Geoff Johns on the upcoming story before the new permanent teams take over - We all love how he writes but with his background as Richard Donner's personal assistant I really would love to see his plans |
| Barry: |
for Superman |
| Steve: |
OK... any final last minute notes? |
| Neal: |
Nope! I'm tapped. Good one, guys |
| Nick: |
he did write a few issues a number of years ago that weren't that great, but I think he's improved since then |
| Barry: |
agreed - that was closer to when he introduced Stars and STRIPE - which wasnt a good title even though they turned into great characters in jsa |
| Nick: |
that's all I've got, such a fantastic issue |
| Steve: |
OK... Well thanks again! Catch you guys later |
| Steve: |
Thus ends another Superman Homepage Kryptonian Council meeting... Last meeting there didn't seem to be much interest in this forum as there was no feedback comments or discussion amongst the fans. If you want us to continue on with these Kryptonian Council meetings please let us know. If not, we'll just give it a miss... It's your call. |
