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Superman Unchained 2015 Wall Calendar
Superman Unchained 2015 Wall Calendar

12 full-color images. Includes 4 extra planning grids for September through December of 2014, plus full pages for January through December of 2015.

Superman Unchained 2015 Wall Calendar
Superman Unchained 2015 Wall Calendar

12 full-color images. Includes 4 extra planning grids for September through December of 2014, plus full pages for January through December of 2015.

CALENDAR

Noteworthy Superman dates to remember...
July 1: Marlon Brando, Jor-El in Superman: The Movie, dies of lung failure aged 80 in 2004.
July 4: Eva Marie Saint, Martha Kent in Superman Returns, born in Newark, New Jersey in 1924.
July 6: Writer and Artist John Byrne (Man of Steel, Superman, Action Comics) born in 1950.
July 10: Superman artist and co-creator Joe Shuster born in 1914.
July 11: Michael Rosenbaum, Lex Luthor in Smallville, born in Oceanside, N.Y in 1972.
July 17: Traditionally recognized as the birthday of Lana Lang, Clark Kent's boyhood friend.
July 22: Terence Stamp, General Zod in Superman and Superman II, born in 1938.
July 25: Traditionally recognized as the birthday of Lucy Lane, Lois Lane's sister.
July 26: Kevin Spacey, Lex Luthor in Superman Returns, born in South Orange, New Jersey in 1959.
July 26: Ilya Salkind, Superman movie producer, born in Mexico City, Mexico in 1947.
July 27: Jackson Beck, voice of Superman Radio Introduction, dies in 2004, aged 92.
July 29: Allison Mack, Chloe Sullivan in Smallville, born in Preez, Germany in 1982.
July 29: Writer Gail Simone (Action Comics) celebrates her birthday today.
July 30: Laurence Fishburne, Perry White in the 2013 Man of Steel movie, born in Augusta, Georgia in 1961.
July 31: Dean Cain, star of Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, born in Mt. Clemens, Michigan in 1966.

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Member Poll

What did you think of the ďBatman v SupermanĒ teaser shown at Comic-Con?

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57% [37 Votes]

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8% [5 Votes]

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6% [4 Votes]

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2% [1 Vote]

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18% [12 Votes]

Iím waiting for an official release of it
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Votes: 65
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Started: July 29, 2014

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A Bereaved Father

July 10, 2014: Will Doomsday Appear in "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice"?Print

Doomsday It seems you can't go two days without a new rumor for the "Batman v Superman" movie, with today's rumor from BleedingCool.com claiming that Doomsday may appear in the upcoming film.

    Bleeding Cool sources who have been rather reliable in the past have told us that they have seen "Batman v Superman" designs for the character of Doomsday. In the comics, Doomsday was the creature who killed Superman, in an epic battle across all the Superman titles, culminating in a battle composed entirely of splash pages drawn by Dan Jurgens.

    Recently, the character returned in the rebooted New 52 Superman titles, in the crossover event Doomed masterminded by Scott Lobdell.

    Now, of course, much can change in the production process. This may be used purely for flashback purposes on the screen, looking at the life (and death) of Superman. It may be purely for promotional efforts to accompany the film. Or it may not make it to the final cut.

What do you think? Will Doomsday be in the new movie? Will we see the death of Superman in "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice"?


Comments

34808
#1 | Marc Pritchard on July 10, 2014 7:02pm EST
masterminded by Scott Lobdell

Oh, someone, please . . . restrain me.

Pfft
4059
#2 | Sven-El on July 10, 2014 7:08pm EST
Nah, go head, Marc.

Any rate, I hope this is just a rumor. It seems too soon in the franchise to kill off Superman. Unless they use Doomsday as a "stinger" at the end for the JL film.
34808
#3 | Marc Pritchard on July 10, 2014 7:13pm EST
^ LOL. Maybe not. The truth is I think Lobdell isn't dumb just as much as I think he would be better as a prose, not a comics, writer.

Anyway, the other way Doomsday could work (and I use that term loosely, as I agree it would be too soon no matter what for a "Death of" story), would be if the film's present is a few years in the future while most of the screen time is technically analeptic (flashback). But like I say, still too soon even for that.
31613
#4 | Hollywood on July 10, 2014 7:34pm EST
I'd rather see Mxyzptlk.

He could alter the entire reality of DC's cinematic universe. But then, that would technically make him the hero...
34808
#5 | Marc Pritchard on July 10, 2014 7:36pm EST
^ Because anything would be better? The absolutism is stale, man.

I would do cartwheels at confirmation of Mxy, though.
27038
#6 | Chef_el74 on July 10, 2014 7:57pm EST
Peter Dinklage for Mxyzptlk!!!
39553
#7 | stargate academy on July 10, 2014 8:19pm EST
Maybe early to bring in Doomsday, but the movie needs a compelling reason for why our heroes band together, so Doomsday could certainly serve as the catalyst for the formation of the Justice League. However, how would they explain his presence on Earth? Please, no story about how an ordinary human being is infected by some Kryptonian virus that arrived with the Black Zero or the Kryptonian scout ship containing all those embryos and then transforms into Doomsday. I would not buy it. The writers can be more creative than that.

It has been said the movie will end with a cliffhanger. Really curious what that will be. Maybe WB/DC will reveal something at San Diego Comic Con.
34808
#8 | Marc Pritchard on July 10, 2014 8:24pm EST
I also wouldn't be surprised with Doomsday at the end, leading to JL.
38699
#9 | PatrickRichard on July 10, 2014 10:06pm EST
If MOS 2 is about Doomsday, then I'll be fine with that. But bringing him for JL seems like a stetch. I'm betting he is hinted at at the end of JL, but will be released later.

I'm also betting that cliffhanger at the end of BvS is Darksied.
38699
#10 | PatrickRichard on July 10, 2014 10:07pm EST
And I still believe Doomsday came on that scout ship.
36615
#11 | the-big-al on July 11, 2014 12:12am EST
Here's my thought. One of the reasons the Death of Superman resonated so well back in the 90's is that it was a cataclysmic event. Both for the real world (us as readers) and the comic universe in which Superman was a part of. He was an integral part of his world. Revered by the universe. He had become the penultimate hero. As such, when he died it rocked the world to it's very core.

Here in this new universe in which they have established Superman, I cannot see them bringing in Doomsday to kill Superman. I can't see him dying. In this world, Superman is not revered or loved yet. He is mostly feared at this point by many and if he died, it wouldn't have such a profound impact on the world. Any impact story writers try and write in will seem contrived and we as an audience won't be fooled. Could we see Doomsday in a later film? Sure. Would I like to? Of course. I would however like to see Superman become more established in his adopted world and become more loved and accepted by the world at large before they bring in Doomsday and make a death of Superman story.

For that matter, why would Superman even have to die?
33044
#12 | borikua on July 11, 2014 12:14am EST
No to Death of Superman story, but Id be OK at a Doomsday appearance on film.
34451
#13 | TheWraith on July 11, 2014 12:46am EST
This is probably based on the fake script which is currently making the rounds, so I doubt this is true.
33585
#14 | seelsa73 on July 11, 2014 12:51am EST
I would however like to see Superman become more established in his adopted world and become more loved and accepted by the world at large before they bring in Doomsday and make a death of Superman story.


Here here.

I will totally geek out when they put the DoS story - or more likely a variant of it - on film, but it is WAAAAAYYY too soon for it. He hasn't even established himself yet and they're going to kill him off? Doesn't make sense. Even putting the story into the first JL would be too soon. I think they need to have at least 3 movies with Supes in it before they move on to that story. JL 2 would be perfect for it imo.
18232
#15 | Hypoxic on July 11, 2014 1:09am EST
I can see Doomsday being the result of something related to the story of BvS, but not a primary antagonist. Having Doomsday part of the JL movie, getting its cues from the Death story where the team falls and only Superman is capable of takin' care of business is doable.
38419
#16 | sehroyal on July 11, 2014 2:53am EST
I dont know where I read this, but someone was discussing doomsday and while most agreed that it was too soon, this one guy thought that actually having him could be a good character development for Superman.

Because, after killing Zod and forging his vow to never kill, Superman would have to find another way to deal with this monster that all of us fans know well about.

I'd be willing to give it a chance if Superman actually had to listen to Batman yell to him to do it, and Superman decides to find another way, risking his life in the process.
11857
#17 | New Roosterman on July 11, 2014 9:01am EST
We have in this movie:

Superman;
Batman;
Wonder Woman;
Cyborg;
Aquaman;
Lex Luthor

and if this rumour is true Doomsday? This is starting to sound like overkill with characters.
38699
#18 | PatrickRichard on July 11, 2014 10:01am EST
I would say YES to the Death story. That is a movie fans have wanted for a very long time.

Superman killing Zod was more than just shock and awe to me. I always believed it set up a few factors.

1. Kryptonians can die. But at the hands of another kryptonian? So far, we haven't heard of Zod returning to life after dying? So, what makes Superman have that option? *cough*Codex*cough*
2. Superman killed his link to his heritage. Not just that, but he learned about them in the process. What did he learn? They are programmed and faulted. So ANY Kryptonian he runs into, he will be very cautious. He has an opionion of them.

Then lets look at the original Death story and Doomsday VS the JL. At that time, Doomsday went up against the "B" team before he went up against Superman. I think it would be a nice touch to see Doomsday go up against the "A" team. And to see Doomsday wreck them and see Superman be the only to stop him. Sounds like a good movie to me.

I would like to see 3 movies with Superman before we get Doomsday as well. Which I think we are getting. MOS, BvS and JL. Save Doomsday for MOS 2. And his return with JL 2.

And actually use the codex as a way to bring Superman back.

That is how I would do it.
38699
#19 | PatrickRichard on July 11, 2014 10:06am EST
When your programmed, you have no "choice". You can be created to do "anything". From leading an army. Being a scientist. And being a killer.

Think about it. Doomsday is a terminator.
32320
#20 | kllel78 on July 11, 2014 11:25am EST
#10 - I agree 100%, I've always thought it was Doomsday in that pod. One theory of mine is they're going for Death of Superman here guys. Doomsday's the threat that will form the League and then Supes will "theoretically" die at the end. But as in the comic he will not really be dead but all his vitals will have slowed to a crawl effectively placing him in a "Kryptonian" coma state" and the teaser leading to the JL movie at the end of BvS will be a faint heart beat or a twitch of some kind from Superman's body eluding to his return in the JL movie.
31613
#21 | Hollywood on July 11, 2014 1:39pm EST
Mxyzptlk > Doomsday

No disrespect to the big lug, but I've always thought Doomsday was overrated. I never hated him as a villain, but outside of Death of Superman, he never did much of any consequence. I was fine with seeing him turn up in the occasional story, but due to the popularity of Death of Superman, the casual observer just seemed to always think Doomsday was the greatest, baddest villain of time. And he's not.

He's just not that interesting. He's a wrecking ball, and that's pretty much it. He's good for a big super-fight, but nothing else.

(I've probably just stated why Snyder would love to use him, of course.)

Death of Superman was a great story, but it's over 20 years old. And it's been milked to death...books, video games, an animated film...it was even touched on a little by JLU. I'd suggest coming up with an original idea, but that's something very few in Hollywood are capable of these days.

Mxy is a pipe dream, I know. With every DC hero needing to be "grounded" these days, fun villains like the Imp from the Fifth Dimension will never see the light of day. Heck, I'll be surprised if he's even granted face time in the comics.
26854
#22 | svillar13 on July 11, 2014 3:07pm EST
I agree 90% with you patrickRichard... although, i would like to see Doomsday teased at the end of Dawn of Justice, (his fist breaking through the ice prison he is in (releasing kara at the same time) - if in fact he is the kryptonian that came out of the pod effectively making him the killer that fought Kara in the prequel comic. (Or a creature created by Darkseid to kill Superman since he has been watching.)

Doomsday then goes up against the Justice League in JL1 (pwning the A-Team) then Superman has to step in. He dies at the end (your heartbeat or twitch at the end.)

The Justice League has to then take the slack for Superman who is now gone. Wonder Woman solo film? Shazaam solo? etc.

Man of Steel 2 in 2018 then becomes the return of Superman storyline (Superboy, Steel, Cyborg Superman, and Eradicator) If they go that route. Or some variation on that story-line.
37517
#23 | Meno on July 11, 2014 3:31pm EST
No thanks on Doomsday. I like Doomsday enough, but don't care to see him on the screen this soon.
38699
#24 | PatrickRichard on July 11, 2014 3:43pm EST
Only time will tell. Hopefully we get some type of game plan at SDCC.

I want a Death Story. I also think the JL needs some wins under their belt first. Show the world they are in, needing them and loving them. And then rip Superman(the heart of the team) away from them. Show a world even more lost than before he became public.

Doomsday isn't a villain. Luthor is a villain. Darkseid is a villain. But Doomsday is a plot point. That plot point needs to be exploited first. Are kryptonians immortal? Is Superman immortal? I think they will touch on that before Doomsday is released. I don't see them touching on that element with Batman. Well...maybe. But not like Doomsday.
34808
#25 | Marc Pritchard on July 11, 2014 4:03pm EST
I want a Death Story.

I don't. At all. Superman Returns already did one, and so did Smallville, though obviously to a much lesser degree (in the transition between seasons 9 and 10). And yeah, I know neither of those two examples were on the scale of the original 90s tale, but it's also more hammering on the Christ analogy that I also think has been well and truly worn out.

Superman shouldn't have to die any more than he should have to kill to be relevant.
38699
#26 | PatrickRichard on July 11, 2014 4:31pm EST
It's because of those 2 examples, mainly Smallville, that I want a Death story.

I know your gripes with the whole "christ" factor. I'm not a religious person but I do love that element. But it's also what I believe the codex is for. To kind of put that whole concept a side. Science instead of religion.

I think any time your "birthright" is to save humanity...it's always a cross into that area.

But yeah, Smallville...WB DC owes me because of that when it comes to Doomsday.
35927
#27 | liheibao on July 11, 2014 4:42pm EST
Superman shouldn't have to die any more than he should have to kill to be relevant.


SmileGrin
34808
#28 | Marc Pritchard on July 11, 2014 4:46pm EST
But yeah, Smallville...WB DC owes me because of that when it comes to Doomsday.

Well, and I wasn't even thinking about the season 8 Doomsday arc, which of course also brought us Henry James Olsen. I meant "Salvation" at the end of season 9 and "Lazarus" at the start of season 10.

Science, meanwhile, since you brought it up in opposed relation to religion, got its strongest direct support in MoS from the villains, in particular when Faora cites evolution and her sense of an associated lack of a moral compass as the reason she and Zod will defeat Kal-El. (Which is complete BS -- she and Zod have a moral compass, and it's their devotion to Krypton, however arrived at deterministically). Even Jor-El, a scientist, puts more "faith" in intangibles like hope and love than he does in actual science.

There is, in my view, absolutely no chance that the narrative unfolds in a way that elevates science above faith. Nor should it have to, but currently the tension between the two is extraordinarily taut. Which, in and of itself, strikes me as descriptive of America today -- and not altogether for the good.
38699
#29 | PatrickRichard on July 11, 2014 4:56pm EST
Question on the moral compass part. Being programmed and being told what to think and feel, like Faora and Zod, wouldn't that be science still? Is that devotion just programming?
35024
#30 | lcmcbain on July 11, 2014 5:11pm EST
^ I don't think they were not programmed like a computer any more then Jor-El was programmed to only care about pure science. They showed plenty of free will in the movie, thus they made their own choices and were not forced to do anything. They chose to do so. Big difference.
34808
#31 | Marc Pritchard on July 11, 2014 5:15pm EST
It's illustrative of the tension, and the source of it doesn't really matter. The fact is, they have a moral compass, and we see it on display most clearly in the scenes where they're coming out of hibernation or whatever and Krypton is exploding.

The broader and more important point, though, is that the issue is raised in specific relation to evolution, which if you live in or pay attention to the US, you surely know is deeply divisive. Further to which, having the villains make an appeal to it (evolution) tells you rather a lot about where the film's intellectual sympathies lie.

Had it not been for that scene in particular, I wouldn't care as much about a lot of the other Christ things, because they were almost exclusively superficial (e.g the crucifixion pose).

Death and Return, however? Can't dismiss that as superficial. Same with evolution.
38699
#32 | PatrickRichard on July 11, 2014 5:46pm EST
They may have made choices Icmcbain. But their choices were because of programming. That type of mentality is beyond our own. We're not programmed pre birth. Jor El knew he was a faulty program. Just along with everyone else on Krypton. Free will might have stopped Zod from trying to take over Earth. Does Doomsday have free will?

I think they are computer programs. They lost their humanity long ago.
38699
#33 | PatrickRichard on July 11, 2014 5:47pm EST
And thank you for that Marc.
34808
#34 | Marc Pritchard on July 11, 2014 6:12pm EST
We're not programmed pre birth.

But see, now we're really starting to get into the subtext of the film, because some doctrines in our world do indeed hold (and people literally believe) that we are, in fact, pre-programmed. It is not at all unusual for Christian denominations to hold that kind of view -- commonly referred to as pre-destiny or, simply, destiny. Smallville in particular is absolutely rife with this stuff, though I often gladly accept it there as a kind of thematic metacomment on our collective prior knowledge that Clark Kent inevitably becomes Superman.

Ideally, in my view, the coming films will hold reason and faith in tension (now that MoS has built that tension, which it did not have to do) rather than ease up on any particular side.

The last two films divided, rather than united, the fans (for many other reasons than this, don't think I don't realize that). And no matter what either film makes me feel, that division makes me sad.
31613
#35 | Hollywood on July 11, 2014 6:50pm EST
@Marc Pritchard

Superman shouldn't have to die any more than he should have to kill to be relevant.


Indeed.
34808
#36 | Marc Pritchard on July 11, 2014 6:57pm EST
^ Not to contradict anything else I've ever said about this matter, though. Wink
31613
#37 | Hollywood on July 11, 2014 7:11pm EST
^ Pfft
39898
#38 | GodzillaofSteel on July 11, 2014 9:34pm EST
I do not want Doomsday in "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice." As a big Superman fan who enjoyed The Death of Superman story, I just think Doomsday is too early. If anything, he should be introduced in Man of Steel 2 or 3. He needs to be the last "ultimate" monster that kills Superman after Superman has tried every other possible option to stop him. It has to have an emotional bang to it. Putting Doomsday in early will cheapen things because we know Superman will come back for Justice League or Man of Steel 2. But if Doomsday is in Man of Steel 2 or 3 as the final villain who kills Superman, and he stays dead for this series, then it will bring an emotional impact for the Man of Steel.

Right now though, Superman should be facing classic enemies that will cause him to have to use his intellect to win, such as Lex Luthor and Brainiac. Heck, even using Parasite will make Superman need to use his brain to overcome his adversary. Superman using his intellect is very much needed, because after the awesome action scenes in Man of Steel, the audience needs to see a Superman who proves that he is just as intelligent as he is strong. Doing this will also give viewers a change of pace and be different from Man of Steel. This brings me back to Doomsday. In the end, there will be no outsmarting Doomsday, it will just be a punching match. Then we will again be subjected to even more nonsensical complaining about "there's too much destruction." So leave Doomsday out. He's better suited as the final Superman villain.
4059
#39 | Sven-El on July 11, 2014 10:32pm EST
Right now though, Superman should be facing classic enemies that will cause him to have to use his intellect to win, such as Lex Luthor and Brainiac. Heck, even using Parasite will make Superman need to use his brain to overcome his adversary. Superman using his intellect is very much needed, because after the awesome action scenes in Man of Steel, the audience needs to see a Superman who proves that he is just as intelligent as he is strong. Doing this will also give viewers a change of pace and be different from Man of Steel. This brings me back to Doomsday. In the end, there will be no outsmarting Doomsday, it will just be a punching match. Then we will again be subjected to even more nonsensical complaining about "there's too much destruction." So leave Doomsday out. He's better suited as the final Superman villain.


Exactly. Another reason I wouldn't want Doomsday this early in the game, is it feels "too soon" after Zod to have nothing but rampant destruction and fall into the Transformers trap where its an endless slew of explosions and fight scenes. Now, I think we can all agree comic books actually have good source material compared to Transformers which are, much like every iteration of the cartoon series since the 1980s, one big toy commercial. Now, that said, the first Transformers movie was a fun ride and had more "heart" if you will then the second and third, however the second and third got so wrapped up in the spectacle that it just became and endless slew of destruction. Were there some awesome moments? Yes .I loved the fight sequence in the forest between Optimus and the three Decpiticons. But one awesome scene does not a good movie make. E.T. is a good movie. Ghostbusters is a good movie. Back to the Future is a good movie. Close Encounters of the Third Kind is a good movie. Jaws is a good movie. The original Jurassic Park is a good movie. Raiders of the Lost Ark (despite Michael Bay insisting it sucks) is a good movie. The Goonies is a good movie. Even Independence Day is a good movie. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is not.

Why? The movies I listed all have one thing: heart. So, yes, give us some action, but for the love of Rao, give us some "heart" to BvS. Giving us Doomsday this quick would not give us any "heart" to the story just yet.
18232
#40 | Hypoxic on July 11, 2014 10:45pm EST
Pritch wrote: it's also more hammering on the Christ analogy


Yeah, but Jesus stole his act from others anyway, so Superman can make it his own, too. Pfft

Just quick on everyone's discussion on the religion/science thing: the counterpoint of religion is philosophy, not science, and no matter how hard modern atheism tries to marry itself with science, and no matter how strenuously modern religion tries to use science to its advantage, there's no link. Science stands on its own ignoring both atheism and theism. In that regard, I hope there's no such commentary in the movies trying to suggest otherwise. It would simply be perpetuating pseudo-arguments on topics made popular by You Tubers.
39898
#41 | GodzillaofSteel on July 11, 2014 11:07pm EST
Sven-El wrote:
Another reason I wouldn't want Doomsday this early in the game, is it feels "too soon" after Zod to have nothing but rampant destruction and fall into the Transformers trap where its an endless slew of explosions and fight scenes. Now, I think we can all agree comic books actually have good source material....

Absolutely. And like you said, comic books actually have good source material. So we have 75+ years of Superman stories to pull from. Now look, I understand that Batman v Superman will have to focus on both Supes and Bats. That's fine, and I've accepted that. But one thing that is severely needed is an adversary that outmatches Superman and forces him to use his intellect. WE ALL KNOW that Batman will be the intelligent one in "B v S." But it would be good for the writers, as you said Sven-El, to keep this from falling into a Transformers trap . If we can have Clark/Kal-El use his brain to solve his problem this time it will definitely give us that heart that you mentioned other classic movies have. I think it would be spectacular to have Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne do investigative work together. Clark can deal with interviewing the proper personnel and catching their verbal mistakes on a recording or he does research by going through files online, while Bruce does his part either as Bruce Wayne or Batman. I could see this film giving viewers a sweet taste of differences to set it apart from other "action-oriented" blockbusters. Time will tell, though.
18232
#42 | Hypoxic on July 12, 2014 6:03am EST
Sven-El wrote: I think we can all agree comic books actually have good source material compared to Transformers which are, much like every iteration of the cartoon series since the 1980s, one big toy commercial.


Except the Transformers comic books are quite good. A Transformers movie based off, say, the Autocracy story would be awesome.
35927
#43 | liheibao on July 12, 2014 7:52am EST
Now, I think we can all agree comic books actually have good source material compared to Transformers which are, much like every iteration of the cartoon series since the 1980s, one big toy commercial.]


The cartoons transcended that very early on, with something none of the films have had, for me, which is character. In the film, aside of Optimus Prime, the other Autobots are just one-liners a la a "Try Me" button on a doll. On the cartoon, you actually had rounded characters, which is astonishing when you consider the audience it was aimed at. Even the 2-dimensional characters like Wheeljack and Motormaster had more to offer. Thankfully, the core of Optimus Prime was left in tact.
4059
#44 | Sven-El on July 12, 2014 10:12am EST
Except the Transformers comic books are quite good. A Transformers movie based off, say, the Autocracy story would be awesome.


The cartoons transcended that very early on, with something none of the films have had, for me, which is character. In the film, aside of Optimus Prime, the other Autobots are just one-liners a la a "Try Me" button on a doll. On the cartoon, you actually had rounded characters, which is astonishing when you consider the audience it was aimed at. Even the 2-dimensional characters like Wheeljack and Motormaster had more to offer. Thankfully, the core of Optimus Prime was left in tact.


Fair point. And duly noted.
26854
#45 | svillar13 on July 12, 2014 10:39am EST
No smashing on religion guys... looking at you Hypoxic... (don't worry I'm not upset Smile That topic of Jesus stealing his act from someone else though is best topic left for somewhere else as I can give you many reasons as to why that's not true. Although I can tell you (since it pertains to what I'm going to say) that C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien actually even say the opposite that all modern myths, legends, and fairy stories, take from the meta narrative, and grand story which is the gospel.

About what Marc Pritchard said... the Christian doctrine of pre-destination is one that yes some Christians hold to, but it is not mere programming, but more along the lines of pre-destined by God for salvation. I'm one Christian that doesn't believe that though as I believe we all have free will to choose whether we want to follow him or not. As Jesus himself gave us a choice. Unlike the pre-destination doctrine though I DO believe that mankind has the ability to choose correctly, but because of our free will, we decide not to.

I do enjoy that religious tension, mainly because of what J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis says about those things.

nobody here can deny that they enjoy stories where the hero sacrifices everything to save the world. Sometimes he has to sacrifice his life, sometimes it's symbolic of his life. We also all enjoy good triumphing over evil, Love, Forgiveness, the Hero accepting his purpose in Life and this is essentially what the gospel story is.
38699
#46 | PatrickRichard on July 12, 2014 11:15am EST
The thing that kind of gets me is the whole "Superman has plenty of source material" line being used. Yes. Yes he does. Not all of it good. Not all of it bad. But 75 years of it nonetheless. All of them took more then 1 episode, issue or movie to tell to express his development.

So, then if Warners is actually capitalizing on "accuracy" with their movie story telling u would rather them take from stories that are just okay, or would u rather them actually break down those moments that stand the test of time and take from material that's still talked about 20-30 years later and immortalize it on screen? I'll go with the known material. Doomsday included.

They do that with their animated films. They should do that with their movies. They only get one shot to tell a story and make it right. They want their movies talked about in the same regards as their comics. 20-30 years from now.

I'm not a Marvel fan. I don't read much of their stuff. How accurate are the Avengers movies to their comic parts?
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#47 | PatrickRichard on July 12, 2014 11:26am EST
nobody here can deny that they enjoy stories where the hero sacrifices everything to save the world. Sometimes he has to sacrifice his life, sometimes it's symbolic of his life. We also all enjoy good triumphing over evil, Love, Forgiveness, the Hero accepting his purpose in Life and this is essentially what the gospel story is


Indeed on that. That's why I want to see a Death story on the big screen. It makes for good storytelling. And why not tell that story when the time is right. The CGI is right.
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#48 | Marc Pritchard on July 12, 2014 12:55pm EST
No smashing on religion guys... looking at you Hypoxic...

Please do not take forum moderation into your own hands. If you're concerned about the content of posts, how to deal with it is very clearly spelled out in the member rules: http://www.superm...opic=rules

Meanwhile, however, religion on the whole doesn't get a pass just because people feel strongly about their religious beliefs. The thing we need to concern ourselves with here is not "smashing on" each other. And so far so good on this thread. Grin (Besides, I don't see where anyone actually has smashed on religion, to say nothing of your faith in particular.)

the Christian doctrine of pre-destination is one that yes some Christians hold to, but it is not mere programming, but more along the lines of pre-destined by God for salvation [. . .] I believe we all have free will to choose whether we want to follow him or not. As Jesus himself gave us a choice. Unlike the pre-destination doctrine though I DO believe that mankind has the ability to choose correctly, but because of our free will, we decide not to.

My point was text vs subtext, though -- not literal 1:1 alignment between "destiny" and "programming." Also, please be careful not to proselytize, which I don't think you intended to do even though you bump up against it (especially with "choose correctly" ).

all modern myths, legends, and fairy stories, take from the meta narrative, and grand story which is the gospel.

This, finally, is exceedingly debatable, as The Holy Bible is hardly a seminal text in world civilization, which was already, by the time Christianity emerged, older than Christianity still is today. By kind of a huge margin. It marks a turning point of a kind, yes, and yes it has been very influential, but it is not exclusively influential and it was also subject to influence. Which is to say, calling it "the meta narrative" -- as though it preceded and encompasses all other narrative -- is just not true.
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#49 | TINKU on July 12, 2014 2:58pm EST
I want to see films inspired by Death story simply because it's a perfect story for both objective & subjective drama. The mass audience worldwide expects Superman villains to get bigger & deadlier. An epic, adrenaline charged, spectacular deathmatch with Doomsday that will leave the audience breathless fullfills the need of effective objective drama. And the fact that Supes will be forced to give it all & die for the people who love/hate him can create very effective subjective drama to invest emotions.
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#50 | EntropyAegis619 on July 12, 2014 3:45pm EST
I really think they should intro with Darkseid, Mongul & Granny Goodness trio and the invasion of Apocalypse story line and then build up to Doomsday, including Brainiac andn Metallo somewhere in the middle. Save the best for last! However it would be cool if they went off the chain and had Imperiex Prime as the final villain. Smile
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#51 | TINKU on July 12, 2014 4:28pm EST
Today director has got the brilliant tools he never had in the past to create the marvelous size & scope for telling stories like LOTR, Transformers, Avengers. Writers have got the dramatic license to modify & adapt stories for an epic cinematic experience. So, why not Superman movies inspired by Death & Return saga? It was the biggest event in the superhero history. I know a lot of people(general audience/non fans) want to see that story brought to life on the big screen. Imo MoS 2 can do the Death saga.
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#52 | Marc Pritchard on July 12, 2014 4:56pm EST
So, why not Superman movies inspired by Death & Return saga?

For me it's simply that I don't want death and resurrection to become fundamental to who and what Superman is.
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#53 | PatrickRichard on July 12, 2014 5:24pm EST
20 years later that story is still a part of who he is. And to be able to capture that on film seems kind of awesome. It's not like that story has been done on the big screen before. Only small and animated.

Superman died. He impacted the world. He came back from death. It doesn't have to be approached as religious. That's what the codex is for. To avoid that. Science is awesome.

Hopefully we get awesome Sci Fi with cloning and other moral discussing things. It is the DCU...not reality.
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#54 | svillar13 on July 12, 2014 6:07pm EST
Mark I wasn't moderating I was just saying not to smash I wasnt upset or anything my point was what I was continuing under it. I apologize if I offended anyone. It may have also sounded like I bumped up against proselytysing but that's because I have such a a deep issue against the doctrine of pre-destination that I had to make it known that we have free will. Again I didn't mean to offend anyone. It's perfectly fine to disagree with me on the meta narrative, this is what C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien have said on the subject matter. I on the other hand believe it wholeheartedly. I may have proselytized by saying the correct choice... but you are kind of coming across as something similar (proselytizing your point) by saying that it is not true that the gospel precedes and encompasses all other narratives. I will be more careful in the future in "preaching" lol unless somebody asks me why I believe what I believe about Superman and the similarities to the Greatest Story Ever Told. Smile

To patrick Don't be afraid of using the terminology lol. "Superman died. He 'Saved' the world. he came back from dead." It doesn't have to be religious if you do lol.
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#55 | liheibao on July 12, 2014 6:16pm EST
Superman died. He impacted the world. He came back from death. It doesn't have to be approached as religious.


Too late for that.
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#56 | Marc Pritchard on July 12, 2014 8:30pm EST
I may have proselytized by saying the correct choice... but you are kind of coming across as something similar (proselytizing your point) by saying that it is not true that the gospel precedes and encompasses all other narratives.

My friend, there is a universe of difference between opining on the correctness of people's choices versus pointing out that Christianity is less than 2/5 as old as the recorded history -- thus narrative -- that preceded it. This is a matter of fact, not opinion, judgment or belief. Perhaps you can share the relevant Lewis and Tolkien quotations? Something tells me there's nuance in them that hasn't been reflected in our exchange.

Please remember as well that I am moderating the site, so when you also do things like put preaching in quotes and then follow it with an lol, you start to make it clear that you're not taking me seriously, which is disrespectful to me and, by extension, to the site and the community. I never accused you of preaching, I said you were coming close, used a term that carries fewer negative connotations to characterize it and asked you please to be careful. I also have no interest in criticizing what you believe or what you want in a Superman story; all I wanted to do is say why I would prefer the death and return story not make it into this round of films.

Thanks.
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#57 | sundevil82 on July 12, 2014 10:50pm EST
We basically got the death of superman story in man of steel without the actual death. While I loved the battle with Zod in the movie, I think it's too soon to see that exact same thing with Doomsday. Speaking of Doomsday, I really don't feel like he's a compelling antagonist at all. He's a mindless brute and that may be cool in a cartoon or comic, but I wouldn't want to see a character like that in a movie. I agree with whoever said the next villain should challenge Supes intellectually. Save the death for later on because we just got this superman... I don't want him to die quite yet!
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#58 | svillar13 on July 13, 2014 9:03am EST
Mark this is where texting and writing can come always come off wrongly. Had you been next to me and I would have been able to say this in person you would have seen that the preaching in quotations and lol was meant in a very lighthearted way not meant in any way to not take you serious. I know that you were not accusing me of preaching. that is not what I meant by the comment. I am a youth pastor and I preach to a group of youth twice a week, so by extension sometimes in mostly everything that I write I tend to start preaching. It was meant as a comment towards me because sometimes I tend to do that, not to offend you or the community at all. I really will be more careful in the future not to preach because I tend to come across like that when I write. I get why you used the term, but in all honesty to me it doesn't have any negative connotations.

As for the quote i'll find the direct quote for you and place it up later today. Smile

P.S. The reason Christians believe the gospel is that kind of meta narrative, is that to us the gospel is seen from the beginning of the Bible to the very last pages. Since it is a document states the beginning of the universe it is then the meta narrative for all Christians : the story that precedes all others. But I understand why others wouldn't think that because they do not believe it.
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#59 | Hypoxic on July 13, 2014 12:24pm EST
svillar13 wrote: No smashing on religion guys... looking at you Hypoxic


I did no such thing, and I'm sorry you feel that way.

svillar13 wrote: That topic of Jesus stealing his act from someone else... I can give you many reasons as to why that's not true.


I kindly pass, thank you.
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#60 | Hollywood on July 13, 2014 12:32pm EST
Seeing a religious discussion/debate of any kind inspired by a Zack Snyder movie makes me die a little inside.
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#61 | liheibao on July 13, 2014 6:41pm EST
You missed the one inspired by Dawn of the Dead?! It was ace! Wink
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#62 | Hollywood on July 13, 2014 7:32pm EST
^ No doubt someone said THAT movie had subtext about society worthy of discussion too.
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#63 | PatrickRichard on July 13, 2014 7:49pm EST
Well...

Don't the dead rise in the bible? Or something like that?
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#64 | liheibao on July 13, 2014 8:10pm EST
^Yeah, something like that. Just without Ving Rhames
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#65 | PatrickRichard on July 13, 2014 8:18pm EST
Then I prefer Dawn of the Dead.

Cool
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#66 | lemarjones on July 13, 2014 8:42pm EST
Doomsday? Again? I could go without another Doomsday or death story. It been done before. And seriously when you KNOW HE'S COMING back, WHAT'S THE POINT?

By the 90's, there were a number of heroes who had died and remained dead, Robin Jason Todd, Flash Barry Allen, Legion of Super-heroes Superboy...they were all gone, and at the time, never to return. There was a sense of permanency to the story and the marketing pretty much indicated that Clark was dead and never coming back. You can't duplicate that today, so why bother?
I think Doomsday vs the League as a pawn of either Darkseid or Brainiac with nobody actually dying but close to death with a doubt of survival works much better. But Death of Superman? Not again. Please not again.
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#67 | Hypoxic on July 13, 2014 9:32pm EST
lemarjones wrote: when you KNOW HE'S COMING back, WHAT'S THE POINT?


The same could be said for any story at all when you know the hero is going to win. The important part is how the craft takes us there.

The craze from the Death story can certainly never be replicated if told again, but it could be told differently. Personally, as long as its good storytelling, I see that as far more significant.
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#68 | lemarjones on July 14, 2014 9:43am EST
The same could be said for any story at all when you know the hero is going to win.


And I likely would say it. Pfft LOL

But to be honest, at that time, it couldn't be said. The number of Death of Superman comics that sold and the media frenzie leading up to it point to that fact. People stood in line for block because they were going to be a part of History. The Last son of Krypton was going to die. Never to return. Never. Ever. EVER!!! Sales went to between 2.5 million to 3 million depending on the source, only to return to "normal' levels after his return. As a matter of fact, the industry nearly collapsed shortly thereafter.

So again, what's the point? How could you tell a death of Superman story on the big screen and it not have that "but he's coming back just like he did in the comics" feeling? You'd have to market other things about the movie and have the death be a surprise.

Although I hate using this example, look at Batman geting his back broken in the last Dark Knight movie. A paralizing back injury and the way you make the story different is that you have a guy put his foot/knee into Bruce's bakc and now it'a all better? I'm no writer, but there are some challenges I wouldn't want to tackle no matter how many zeros are in front of the decimal point.

Death of Lois Lane. Death of Martha Kent. With Clark and the League using various resources both alien and mystic to bring the person back to life...oh wait, that was done in Superman the Movie.
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#69 | Hypoxic on July 15, 2014 11:02pm EST
lemarjones wrote: As a matter of fact, the industry nearly collapsed shortly thereafter


That was mostly Marvel's fault.

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