HeroicHollywood.com has published part of a longer interview with “Batman v Superman” Assistant Director Damon Caro and Visual Effects Supervisor Bryan Hirota in which they discuss working on the upcoming “Justice League” movie, the tone of the film, and comparing “Man of Steel”, “Batman v Superman” and “Justice League” to the original “Star Wars” trilogy.
From the little glimpses we’ve gotten to see so far, it seems like there is going to be a bit of a lighter tone. You have Flash coming in, which obviously lightens the tone quite a bit.
Hirota: And they’ve said that.
Caro: And the interesting thing is, on Man of Steel, in [Zack Snyder’s] head he had the storyline treatment of where they were going to go, and at the beginning of BvS it was even richer and deeper. The arc was BvS was the midway point and the darker movie. Hence what happens at the end; the whole tone of it was darker. If you play your story all at one level, there are no peaks and valleys, there’s no life. The great stories, the Greek tragedies, even life we have to be knocked down before we can build our way up. Justice League was always the rebirth of hope and the rise. People try to say that it’s a response to the backlash, and I’d definitely say that criticisms were heard, but it’s not like we threw everything out and started with a blank slate. It’s a bit like Star Wars. Empire Strikes Back? Dark movie! But then Return of the Jedi is the rise and the rebuilding of hope.
“Justice League” opens in theaters on November 17, 2017.
I hope people don’t take this statement to mean that Snyder’s caving to “pressure” to make the film lighter “like the Avengers” because Dawn of Justice under-performed. Snyder was saying League would be lighter than Dawn before Dawn even came out.
That doesn’t mean they didn’t over emphasize that, add more humor and make it more “like the Avengers” due to pressure.
If you think the reaction to BvS had 0 impact on Justice League then I have a bridge to sell you.
Agreed. Besides, Snyder is not the type of guy to give into preconceived notions and personal preferences, which is why he gets a lot of flack. It’s not that he doesn’t care for the characters. He just doesn’t care that people have a certain version they want to see. Also, going by his track record, I really doubt that this film is going to be light in the sense people are thinking. His lightest film, an animated feature, had some pretty dark themes as well. Also, I already felt a sense of hope and change at the end of BVS;… Read more »
I think the problem with the new DC movies is that they aren’t all that kid-friendly. If they could be really good and appropriate for kids, then I then that not only their movie sales would grow, but more kids would read comics. I’m glad to see that the movie is going to be at least a little more upbeat.
I’d settle for just “fun to watch”. By the last 30 minutes, I just wanted SvB to be over.
“That’s the curse of Superman. He becomes whatever you want him to be…”
All kidding aside, that’s why I’m especially concerned for the Shazam movie. Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Aquaman, even Flash can all take a bit of the “edgy” treatment, but Captain Marvel’s been mucked up since the Crisis because DC keeps trying to serious him up. I’d rather just see a Black Adam movie with the DCEU’s tone than let Billy take the fall.
Actions will speak louder than words. A lot of things were said before these movies came out so I’ll remain cautiously optimistic.
I find it odd that the mood would be ‘lighter’ after the death of Superman… Wouldn’t things be pretty dreary after that? Not that I want more gloom, but I’m just talking from a story telling perspective it would seem like things would be pretty bleak after a beloved hero died. Just a thought and we’ll see how they handle it.
Well that’s because BvS and Justice League are about Batman’s redemption and development. Think about it. Batman v Superman is all about the redemption of Batman. Superman’s death was merely a contrived plot device to push Batman’s character to the light and redemption. After Superman dies Batman realizes he is wrong, is redeemed, forms and leads the Justice League so things get lighter because it’s form his perspective. Everyone here can crow about how The Ultimate Cut shows “Snyder wanted a Superman movie” but all it really proves is that Clark Kent had more lines. If you take off your… Read more »
Exactly. The film, which is meant to be a Man Of Steel follow up, opens with a Batman scene and monologue. Then it ends with a lot of him too. It felt like a Batman film that Superman wormed his way into. As a Superman fan, that made me feel really disappointed.
I found the set up to be very unfortunate as well. This movie would have worked so much better in my opinion had they used Batman minimally as a more mysterious character investigating Superman and Lex. How awesome would it have been to see both clarks and batmans investigations lead up to the same thing… That lex is behind everything. That to me is more interesting then the route they took with having batman on the verge of murdering superman because of his one track mind.
“You have Flash coming in, which obviously lightens the tone quite a bit.” From what I’ve seen, Flash doesn’t seem to add humor so much as concern that he is mentally challenged. The writers really, really need to watch a few Flash episodes of Justice League International. — THAT’S how you write the Flash. “If you play your story all at one level, there are no peaks and valleys, there’s no life.” Um, both MOS and BvS were completely one-note, dark, gritty, joyless movies. For Justice League to improve the franchise, this movie is going to have to do a… Read more »
The fact that WB is having to do soooo much damage control for this movie months before it’s released is not encouraging. No, it’s not encouraging, but not for the reasons you probably think. BvS got a lot of hate, but how much of it reflects audience response is questionable and, worse, it’s impossible to legitimately measure. The film did well when it was showing and it did really, really well in home sales. Its rating on RT is geenrally favourable per the user reviews and more so on other sites like Metacritic. For Warner, this can go either way;… Read more »
I’m guessing they took a more serious tone to differentiate from Marvel, but they’ve taken a lot of missteps along the way. Telling a serious/realistic story doesn’t mean you have to alienate part of your audience. I was reluctant to take my nephews to see BvS, not because of the violence, but because I’m certain they would have been bored until the final act. I’m all for serious and realistic tones, but they kind of lost me in MOS when they didn’t explain why Kryptonians were speaking English. They thought to have ZOD speak in other languages, but didn’t explain… Read more »
I thought the concept of considering how the world would really react to the arrival of Superman was a great idea. I liked grounding the story in the real world – they just completely missed who Superman is. The movie writers just don’t seem to understand – or they don’t like writing him – as an inherently good person. In a dark world, Superman is light and hope – and yet he doesn’t represent any of that in the movie. They obviously want to make him Batman with super powers, and that’s not who he is.
i agree that the idea was great, but it wasn’t executed well. That falls on the writer and this is why we need new people to come in and take a crack at the universe. I am hoping that they figure it out, but if I were a betting man, I’d guess JL is going to get a similar reaction both critically and from fans as the first two films because they’re using the same people behind the scenes.
They didn’t seem to learn much from MOS.
WB needs to revisit the original Action Comics #1. Superman is not some navel-gazing mope who can’t decide whether or not to use his powers. Superman LOVES who he is – he takes great joy in leaping an 8th of a mile, and scaring the wits out of the bad guys. He thinks the “prank” he’s pulling on Lois Lane of being a meek guy in disguise is hilarious. He’s completely confident that he’s using his powers for good, and doesn’t hesitate to do so. Let’s see THAT Superman on the big screen, ok? … except for the part where… Read more »
Believe it when I see it. So far nothing I’ve seen of the movie gives me any reason to think it won’t get be another de-saturated grimdark slog only maybe with slightly more banter.
Rebuild hope?????? What the hell is that supposed to mean. They can make some adjustments along the way as long as they don’t stoop towards the Marvel direction. Case in point: Avengers and mostly Deadpool (otherwise known as Deadpoop). As for them needing to be kid friendly, kids are pretty smart nowadays and don’t have to have a carnival ride of nonsense to appreciate a movie. If you talking about ten years old then they can go to see Lego Batman.
Regarding the kid-friendly thing, kids still care about quality, I know. And ten-year-old kids should be the target market anyways – Comic book heroes should always be directed toward kids, especially one as well-known as Superman.
You mean that us people that have been reading the caracter for 10,20,30,60 years(by the way, mature readers are by far DC universe’s biggest customers) don’t deserve to have a movie about him? The target has to be a child that probably never has and never will read a DC comic in his whole life? The idea is to lose 10 million fans in order to catch 1 million new fans? Because it’s what happens when you make a DC movie just for kids. Even worse, you’ll get those new fans that will quit reading the characters when they grow… Read more »
In order for any story in any form of media to succeed, it needs to have a target market that is not necessarily clear to its audience, but clear to its story-writers. If something is written to please everyone, it pleases no one. But if something is written to please even a young audience, older audience members will be pleased too. In the case of Superheroes, the target audience needs to be around 10 years or older, but appropriate for all ages. It will please most people if the focus is to make movies kid-friendly, high-quality, and embracing what comics… Read more »
I think you have a big confusion in concepts: you can’t have a target audience (writing for them) and please all. And you can perfectly have a movie with no specific target, one perfect example: most Pixar movies. Movies like Up, Wall-E or The Incredibles have no clear target and it’s the reason of their success. One may bring his children to watch them but might go just with his Friends as well. On the other side there’s movies like Cars (yes, it’s Pixar) that no grown up person would watch unless he’s bringin his kids to watch them. Reason:… Read more »
Rebuild hope means Superman is dead and the Earth is unprotected. The Snyder trilogy is birth, death and resurrection. Sure, WB heard all the moaning from BvS, but that same arc is being adhered to. Superman was celebrated by the public at the end of BvS, so when he comes back, he’s not going to be hated or smeared as much. They will finally join him in the sun, like Joe-El predicted.
To be honest I’m waiting on Snyder Superman productions to cease. They’re not great if we’re all honest and the sooner Warners exhaust his average productions the better. Justice League looks terrible & I aint paying for a theatre ticket. I’d much rather see a new Superman tv series & leave movies to another director in future. Man Of Steel & Batman v Superman were too dark, boring in places, terrible music score & not enough upbeat moments. I fear Justice League & further Snyder Superman productions will follow. Until then, I’ll be more than happy with Mr Donner’s production!
What??? Looks terrible???? How can you possibly conclude anything in depth about the movie based off the first teaser trailer. Don’t agree with one thing you said about MOS and BvS.
Your an obvious hater and NOTHING that they’re going to accomplish is going to satisfy you. AT ALL!
Not a ‘hater’, a genuine disappointed Superman movie lover. In relation to my thoughts on recent Superman productions, most Superhero, Superman & movie viewers agree. Superman hasn’t really blown the audience away either on this webpage or amongst many who I’ve read & spoke to in person. I long for the Superman trilogy with the same care & attention as Chris Reeve films (movie & part II) & Batman (Bale). Where Superman film isn’t (Superman Returns) dark like Snyder productions. The new Justice League film looks the same as previous films & ‘for me’ that disappoints but I’m not ‘a… Read more »
Looks Terrible? Wow….you have some amazing skillz there!!! From one trailer, that barely shows story and was just meant to introduce us to the characters and show us that it is lighter, you think it looks terrible?
It’s this type of crap that is the problem with comic book fans. Good God!
My thing about this Storyline is there hasn’t been enough character development. I get the going darker to get brighter and all that jazz. And I enjoy the films. The cinematography, the casting, I even appreciate the story line. My big problem is I don’t care about the characters. I don’t feel emotionally connected with them at all and I look for that in any film I watch. I didn’t care when Superman died. It didn’t connect with me when he said goodbye to Lois. I couldn’t connect with Batman either. That’s been my struggle. And that’s why I think… Read more »
superman had 43 lines of dialogue in a 2 1/2 hour movie called Batman V Superman. That is unacceptable. They need to stop with this silent superman stuff because I for one am sick of it. That is 3 movies in a row where Superman barely speaks and I’m over it. Also I am tired of all the excuses by the writers. If he’s hard to write for then move on to something else. I’m sure there are plenty of people who would be a much better fit. Superman has been nothing more then a device for others to react… Read more »
43 lines???? Just what is he supposed to be doing, talking to himself when he’s fighting and or flying? You can’t predict and guarantee anything except that apparently Marvel can put a cape on a turd and there’s going to some audience that gives it rave reviews.
The point that I think is trying to be made here is if Marvel indeed put a cape on a turd, they would probably make the effort to make that caped turd an actual compelling character. It would have a lot more character development and personality (and stench I suppose) than Superman in these films has. This has been proven to me when Marvel can actually make me care more about a talking racoon and a walking plant than my all time favourite fictional character. I think what Sundevil82 is pointing out is that Superman in Batman V Superman had… Read more »
right on
superman speaks in short sentences through out the entire movie and doesn’t say anything particularly memorable. Obviously I don’t think he should be talking to himself, but there were and have been plenty of chances for him to have meaningful dialogue. I for one was excited and anticipating a speech during the Senate hearing to defend himself and convey what his beliefs were. That would have done so much for character development, but not a single word. Not a single word. He could have spoken to batman to plead his case, but instead he turned into a macho meathead and… Read more »
You are completely right. That is one of the big issues with these films. When I heard they were making Man Of Steel my first thought was ‘Great, at least he’ll be more of a character and have more lines than he did in Superman Returns” only to be really shocked coming out of Man Of Steel to find that they managed to do it all over again. Make him this silent robot that hardly speaks. Batman V Superman it was even more painfully obvious. He was essentially a cardboard cut out.
Most people??? How’d you come with any numbers? As for emotionally connected,…come on! I can understand that on some small scale but for god sake these are superhero movies. You didn’t care when Superman died? Sounds like you had your mind made up before seeing the movie.
I cared when he died because I love the character and my love for the character probably made me give the movie more goodwill then it really deserved. They didn’t do batman any favors either really. I didn’t like the version of the character they used for him either. I certainly didn’t have my mind made up about the movie. I’ve said time and time again that I want these movies to be successful. Just because some of us are critical doesn’t mean we’re not fans or want it to fail. If my favorite band puts out a sub par… Read more »
No. I actually didn’t. I really wanted this movie to take me to the next level. The controversial things like Supes killing Zod and causing all of the destruction didn’t bother me one bit. I think Henry is perfectly cast. I had no problems with the dark tone AT ALL with BvS. I tried to connect I really did. I’m going to see JL. And I’m going with DCs flying colors. I’m a huge fan as the only way to keep them coming is to continue to support it. I have hopes that JL will be better. I have hope… Read more »
Angst and suffering???? U got to be kidding!!
Regarding Zod’s death. At the time in the movie he wasn’t Superman. In fact in both of the movies he has yet to be been called Superman to his face. Only in reference. So Superman didn’t kill Zod. Kal-El did. That is a major point that’s been in denial since day one.
I see what you are getting at and I understand. The only problem with that though is you are basically suggesting that we’ve been given not 1 but 2 Superman films where Superman has technically not been in them. It’s just Kal-El. Is that not a problem? I think it is. However, I don’t think that’s the real issue anyway. It doesn’t matter what he’s referred to as in the film. Superman, Kal-El, Clark Kent, Man Of Steel, Supes, Smallville, C.K, S….call him whatever you want. Regardless of his name or how he is referred to, shouldn’t he always BE… Read more »
Amen. Very well said. But it’s pretty hard to connect to Batman anyways. 🙂
batman is my second favorite hero after Supes, but I’m honestly done with Frank Millers version. While I appreciate what Miller did for comics with Dark Knight Returns, he made one of the most (if not the most) unlikable version of the character. It only continued in the two sequels and all star Batman. I was disappointed when I found out BvS was taking inspiration from that book, especially since it would be their first encounter. And don’t get me started on how batman literally has a solution for everything and can hold his own against meta humans. Just watched… Read more »
I watched JL Dark couple days ago. For an R rating I thought it was rather tame. I used to look forward to these WB/DC animated movies. And I’ve seen almost almost all of them. But the last several have become so off the wall with the stories. As far as Batman being there, he was about the only JL member they could have included just due to the fact as you said a, dude in a suit revolving around all the magic theme. The trivial appearances from the other members was almost ridiculous. What happened to the great JL… Read more »
Why the hell do we need a “JL Dark” in the first place? Other than a Young Justice there really doesn’t need to be these other factions going on. It’s overkill enough when X-Men does it!
Can’t argue with that Matt. Why we can’t get a decent regular JL flick I don’t know.
I can’t figure out what their trying to prove giving these off the wall stories and or different versions. Certainly miss the earlier directions they had given us.
WB has major problems. The suits are pure business men, who don’t know anything about making movies. They went and hired a guy like Snyder, who’s not good at coming up with original stories. BvS was out of comics and we already had seen it. He made the movie way to dark, just look at Batman killing people. Until someone in WB makes the decision to fire Snyder, these movies will continue to fail.
I had no problem with Batman being BATMAN! That’s more realistic than thinking he can simply beat everyone up while he’s being fired upon. Thinking any of these kinds of movies having all the destruction and everyone just walking away isn’t realistic. Let’s not dumb down the fact that Batman wasn’t involved with anything other than hard core thugs and murderers. One other thing…..no one apparently had a problem with all the outrageous killings that went down in Deadpool.
Because Deadpool kills people. That is, literally, his job. He is a mercenary, killing for money is his whole schtick. Why would anyone have a problem when a character that is known for killing people in outrageous ways, does exactly that?
Batman, on the other hand, DOES NOT KILL. It is the one rule that he has, the one really defining character trait that he is known for in the comics. So yeah, fans of the character will be upset with such a blatant disregard of his defining characteristic.
Exactly. It’s not a matter of “only ‘x’ morality will do for any character,” but a matter of “what sense of morality/personality is memorable about ‘character x’. ” The whole idea of “rebuilding hope” is fine and all and the JL trailer/teasers have been decent, but these answers don’t make me feel like they’ve learned their lesson. “If you play your story all at one level, there are no peaks and valleys, there’s no life” is exactly the criticism leveled at both Superman-centered movies so far. “Too dark” is just the way that has been expressed because the power-fantasy aspect… Read more »
Well I would bet the majority of people that saw Deadpool didn’t no much about the character. And all this 50 year old description of what Batman doesn’t do and Superman for that matter. If your going to ride on those ancient coat tails then were never going to see these characters move past adolescents. I don’t mind the more, dare I say adult direction. Yes you can pick out things but for the most part I’ve had no problem with the direction they’re taking them.
Not all knew about Deadpool, but they likely knew some of the basics. I did, and I loved the movie. But even so, the audience not knowing is a potential advantage of the character not having a popular history. With Superman, you have that history – if the writers don’t like that or can’t handle it, they need to find another character to write. There are plenty who are able and willing to understand that “the fleas come with the dog” as it were. Don’t like fleas? Get a goldfish. lol 🙂 I think it’s the opposite for Superman. The… Read more »
Lighter tone and humor are NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE to the problem with the DCEU. It’s how Snyder puts moments and images over the story and proper characterization, it’s rushing movies to the theater for the sake of having 2 in a year, it’s the lack of consistency in character writing and story progression, it’s not a having a solid direction for the universe, it’s not having anyone over see the universe, it’s not setting a culminating event that every movie attributes too, it’s a HUGE number of issues that need to be addressed but are not so they can… Read more »
Maybe your calling problems that aren’t problems at all. Yes….after you’ve seen the movies, like any movie you can pick out a few things for the sake of trying to play critic.
Regarding Benny Hill music. That theme would have been right at home in Civil War during that ridiculous fight at the airport or
perhaps every time Deadpool showed up while he was chopping and dicing everyone up into pieces.
You do realize that Deadpool was supposed to be absurd right? The movie was pretty true to the character as far as I can tell. I’m not sure why you keep bringing it up, but perhaps the character is just not for you and that’s okay. I can definitely see how he wouldn’t appeal to some, As far as Batman goes, he is not the Punisher. He is not supposed to kill. That’s not changing the character for the better and they didn’t really do a good job explaining why he was in such a dark place. Perhaps if they… Read more »
im not bashing on you or the film by the way. I still enjoyed it, but I just think they could have and should have been much better. The ambitious ideas were there, but I think the wrong people executed them.
The moments-over-scenes is a legitimate issue Snyder has and one of the few actual complaints I also have about the guy– which is why cutting out half an hour of story exposition and downtime from BvS was a really, really stupid idea. But it’s hard to entirely blame WB (or Snyder, for that matter) for their focus on “JL is lighter” reaction. I’ll be the first to blame Warner for knee-jerk reactions, but the majority of the criticism came in the form of the dark tone. You’re not wrong in that the tone wasn’t the problem (chances are we would… Read more »
Yup, I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, there was no need for the Knighmare scene. It added nothing to the story, confused a lot of people as to what was going on, has lead some to think the DCEU is going Injustice and implies that Superman has no real care for humanity, only Lois. Batman’s motives and fears were already established at that point, so what was it for? It looked cool, that’s it.
I’m not a big fan of that sequence either and I would (mostly) cut it out of the movie myself. I still can’t bring myself to blame Snyder entirely, though, as the requirement for setting up Justice League probably came from higher up.
The imagery over characterisation is perfectly demonstrated in Superman’s one little montage of so called ‘heroism’. The family on the roof in the flood. Looking up and reaching out for Superman. Floating there in slow motion in front of the sun. It may as well have just had the words ‘SAVIOUR IMAGERY’ flashing up in big bold letters across the screen. Instead of a miserably slow and dull scene where Superman is confusingly just floating in mid air saving no one, imagine we actually saw him reassuring those people and getting them to safety with some reasonably up beat music… Read more »
Like I said before, I think Snyder wanted all humanity out of Superman. He wanted Superman to be more of a deity than the simple guy that grew up and became a hero. Clark never really chooses to be Superman in these movies. In Man of Steel he’s trying to get away from people, then when he finds out who he really is Jor-El tells him that he was sent here to be a bridge between two peoples, that he can save humanity, that he needs to go and do all of that. So he goes home to spend time… Read more »
Too many people sound like they want, “old time Superman.” Touchy-fealy–! That doesn’t exist. This is 2017 not 19 something. However at this point I’m not convinced that he is actually excepted that he is Superman. I can not deny that the atmosphere in both movies is of a darker nature. But the fact we know he’s Superman is obviously being side tracked. I will make this statement again…….in both of the movies no one has even called him Superman to his face. Only referenced as. I think when we see and hear that it will be then that we… Read more »
the rest of the world is already calling him superman, not sure how being called Superman to his face would change any perspective. Not everyone that has issues with this universe wants an old fashioned Superman. As much as I love the old fashioned Superman, I grew up with the post crisis version and want a modern and serious take more than anyone. That being said, this universe has not been executed well and there have been many many examples given in this whole discussion from various members on what works and what doesn’t work, how things can be improved… Read more »
Yeah, he’s already called Superman. That “not yet Superman” idea was semi-feasible in MoS, but when the title of the movie is “Batman v Superman” that doesn’t work anymore – that, or you run the risk of people basically saying “wake me when he’s Superman finally”. I definitely would like to see the DCEU succeed. But if it keeps learning the wrong lessons and repeating past WB mistakes (and not just with Superman – their rep isn’t wonderful for planning and I have some great non-DC examples) then they’ll be the ones who kill the franchise. When not even adding… Read more »
Well….sorry but I just don’t see Superman in the two movies the way you do. The movie audience as of now has grown up with Marvel and all it’s had to offer. And they prove time and time again that THEY can put out not just mediocre but out right crap and get good critical reviews leading to box office success. But good for them! It just sounds to me that you along with a few others want a style of Superman that their simply not doing. And A lot of what’s wanted seems like it comes right out of… Read more »
Marvel can do that because they’ve earned the goodwill for it. It wasn’t just given. If Iron Man had sucked, we wouldn’t even be talking about an MCU. But Marvel did what WB/DC had decades to do but didn’t have the vision.. so they’re playing catch-up (as always). Marvel even had to go the extra mile by taking characters that had little reputation and trying to get larger audiences to get into them. Yeah, I would like a cinematic Superman that respects the source material. Maligning the comics is nuts, because that’s where this all comes from. But regardless, I… Read more »
It seems you are the only person appreciating MoS and BvS who still writes comments. I admire your perseverance. Most DCEU fans stopped commenting for obvious reasons. There is a fundamental difference in perspectives that cannot be negotiated. It resulted in this strange impression that one group of people watched completely different movies than the other group. It is not possible to satisfy everybody, and I hope they will stay true to their vision. If they try to adjust to expectations of disappointed fans they will lose people who embrace the current take. DCEU has much bigger and more passionate… Read more »
Speaking for myself, I just want a character that resembles Superman. He doesn’t need to be saving kittens from trees, but it would be nice if he was saving children in a school bus from drowning without having to wonder if that was the right decision.
I kinda disagree with this; thematically, it holds up and it was one of the moments that needed to be “moments”. Actually, I’d argue most “moments” are fine, they just tend to hog the screen-time (again reinforcing my belief that what they cut out from the UE was absolutely necessary for the film). Regardless, that scene works in my opinion. It wasn’t a “badass” thing, it was intentionally removing humanity from Superman and turning him into a symbol, viewed from the outside, from the perspective of everyone else. The musical score in that bit also reflects that, starting with the… Read more »
I agree that it’s a good idea – but, imo, it works best if the first film more fully explored him as a person. With that properly fleshed out, it works to flip the perspective on it’s head like that. But since we don’t get that, it just further distances him not from humanity in the movie, but from anyone in the audience not immediately invested in the “S”.
If that makes any sense. 🙂
Oh for god sake. sure it does but… Whats next? A discussion on his favorite shoes.
May I ask you why you seem to be so against Superman having a stronger presence in these movies? I understand that you like him so far, but what’s wrong with giving him more dialogue and a better story arc? That’s all people like myself and Kal-Elvis are saying. Why wouldn’t you want things to be improved upon? I don’t see the logic in arguing against that. It’s funny that you keep saying that many of us want an old fashioned type of superman when it seems that you seem to prefer something more in line with the old Fleischer… Read more »
How do you get from character development to shoe discussion? That’s odd. Superman’s development as a character, as well as his motivation, had a lot of holes.
This video does a decent job explaining a lot of it:
https://youtu.be/teTOkGXa_W8
It makes sense; I think THEY think they did just that with the first movie. Thematically, they did, but Man of Steel wasn’t a very good movie (again, the script was a mess) and didn’t communicate its themes very clearly, so there is this disconnect. Snyder has gone on record saying he wanted the first three movies to be a trilogy; it didn’t work out as he expected.
The script was a mess???? There wasn’t anything hard to figure out. I don’t know any disconnect that you’re referring to.
The Codex is a MacGuffin that ultimately adds nothing to the story. There are scenes, like the one aboard Zod’s ship, that are superfluous. Jor-El’s hologram exists for thematic purposes, but ends up becoming the exposition device. The dialogue is trailer-bait-quality, at best. Characterization gets lost between the story’s themes and the film’s action. The last hour of the movie lacks the necessary downtime to create the juxtaposition that the producers themselves cite as necessary over large story-arcs. I like the movie well-enough and I’ve defended it since 2013 (largely because its detractors are extremely quick to dismiss what’s good… Read more »
NeoRanger: On what would fix MoS: yep, pretty much. Well said.
Neo Ranger: Good point about them thinking they did that – and it’s a great example of one of the larger issues they’ll have to address in how they make these going forward, imo.
Excellently stated – I completely agree – except:
Geoff Johns is supposedly overseeing this trainwreck, which I think is a very bad idea. Johns’ tastes do not translate well to the general public (impaled Superman, anyone?)
Better that they should enlist some of the talent involved in the animated series, like Dini.
I have to agree with you on that one. Dini nailed the DC universe with all the old cartoon shows and most of the animated movies are excellent, head and shoulders above what we’ve been given in the DCEU.
Maybe if your living in the past.
It’s got nothing to do with living in the past. The animated movies everyone are referring to are current, they are being released along side these theatrical movies. It’s about proper characterization. These movies, so far, are doing a terrible job of bringing these characters to life. Superman, the main character, barely says a word, he just stands there looking all morose. He could be replace with an autistic turtle and no one would notice. He’s supposed to be a symbol of hope, he’s supposed to be inspiring. He’s spent 90% of this DCEU looking depressed. Nothing he’s done has… Read more »
Very well said. This video covers a lot of the problems with BvS, too (posting since it looks like I can share videos again):
https://youtu.be/V7Z2AKOrQg4
Yup.
RedCape: You keep saying that (the “living in the past” thing).. you may well believe it. But from what I can see, that idea’s been at least partially debunked by several posters, myself included. And that doesn’t take into account the larger audience split that occurred in a somewhat similar fashion to the fandom viewers. Is everyone who didn’t like the movie or the franchise direction, then, living in the past? What does it say if the next movies do poorly or below WB expectation? (I’m guessing JL will do well but who knows after that)
Train wreck????? What the H are you talking about?
So I see DC’s films still spark a lot of debate around here…
Yep – “Truth, Justice and The American Way” weren’t “the Neverending Battle”… these movies are. xD lol
Love it or hate it BvS was just not the movie people were expecting (story, tone, etc.), hence all the discussions and arguments. And yes, it’s possible to have enjoyed it as well as expecting a different outcome/movie.
Well hold on here…….”People”?? I suppose, but but the moron’s that drove this movie into these depths of conversation were a bunch of panty wipes on Rotten-Tomatoes, called movie critics. Attention spans on par with say a Beagle.
Personally, I don’t care if the movie wasn’t what I was expecting (unfortunately, it was). I’d love to be pleasantly surprised. However, there are core components to the character of Superman – if you get those wrong (which they did), then he’s a different character, and should be in a different movie.
Tru, J and T A W! That’s old time. There is no battle. This is the reboot. Let’s move on.
Even given my participation, I had to joke at how these long debates keep happening so long after the movies came out. Though, the significant problems with the current direction (so far, at least) make it hard to “move on” until they address said problems. And hopefully they do, so that we all can move on to the much more enjoyable task of rooting for these characters again in their new cinematic adventures.
That’s the hope, anyway…even if, for some of us at the moment, it’s not exactly the expectation.
Like everything. Significant problems are only problems with some people. I would say most don’t have any. However addressing issues could have been handled in a MOS sequel. But they didn’t do that and for some, BvS in their minds, created more. But with the upcoming JL I don’t see them addressing these as a priority. And that will probably continue IF they make JL2.
I don’t know about anybody else feels but at this time there doesn’t seem to be any direction of what is going to happen with Superman after JL.
True on the second part, I agree. On the first part, they may only superficially see it as a PR priority, but while some liked it and some didn’t, it’s my feeling that the box office numbers will get worse if they don’t address and correct. The only thing that’d save JL is because it’s the first. After that, it’s “sink or swim”. This will sound like hyperbole, but I do honestly think that if Keaton and Reeve had done a movie together as Batman and Superman, BvS would have done substantially less at the box office. “It’s the first… Read more »
Can’t disagree Kal. Even if Wonder Women and the JL blow it out of the water at this point, and I don’t want to seem overly negative, I don’t see Superman as a priority regarding the rest of what ever direction the WB will be going. Since they’re being very quite about things they may be resting on what they have coming out this year and seeing what the end results may be regarding the movies attendance. I hope I’m wrong about Superman. Time will tell. Let’s hope time won’t amount to another 20 years.
I definitely agree there, too. I almost think WB is taking a “wait and see” approach (at least publicly, meaning they only go so far privately and can pull back if they feel the need to). Likely I’ll sound like a broken record here, but WB doesn’t have a good rep for having a “long vision” as a company. It’s hurt them time and time again, and left quite a bit of money “on the table” as it were. Even with all of the problems I had with MoS, it was a solid basic template, just (imo) terribly executed. WB’s… Read more »